Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
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From: DeKalb, IL
Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
Originally Posted by T/A KID
I have wondered myself how different size cams feel and react. My buddy has a 346 LS1 car with a TSP 238/242 113 .603 .608 lift in his bolt-on car with 4.33 gears and a 4000 stall (I am about to drive it when he comes down 
and my other good friend is about to get his LE2 heads done we are putting a motor together right now that will be a 355 with a custom grind (buddy works at comp) that is a 233/242 112 .568 587 lift with a 3:73 rearend and a 3500. I don't know the specs to the LE2 cam but I bet there not too far off. I will drive his car as well when we get it done.
I myself am wondering how these cams react. I am doing a single plain (super Vic) 396 with Ported AFR's I was thinking something like a 239/244 113-114 LSA with about .612 .618 lift with the extra cubes I am hoping this will Idle fairly well and have good street manners. IT will be backed with a 3000 stall and probably a 3:23-3:42 gear ratio. Again I hope this will be street friendly any input would be great. Highway driving at 65MPH would typically put me in the 1900RPM range, So MPG wouldn't be that bad till I Tromp on it.
I know bigger is not always better but the LS1 boys and there 408 CI motors typically rund big high240-low250 duration cams on wide LSA's and SUPPOSDELY have great street manners. I know TUNNING is a big part of getting it to run smoother, idle better, and to improve the driveablity
and my other good friend is about to get his LE2 heads done we are putting a motor together right now that will be a 355 with a custom grind (buddy works at comp) that is a 233/242 112 .568 587 lift with a 3:73 rearend and a 3500. I don't know the specs to the LE2 cam but I bet there not too far off. I will drive his car as well when we get it done.
I myself am wondering how these cams react. I am doing a single plain (super Vic) 396 with Ported AFR's I was thinking something like a 239/244 113-114 LSA with about .612 .618 lift with the extra cubes I am hoping this will Idle fairly well and have good street manners. IT will be backed with a 3000 stall and probably a 3:23-3:42 gear ratio. Again I hope this will be street friendly any input would be great. Highway driving at 65MPH would typically put me in the 1900RPM range, So MPG wouldn't be that bad till I Tromp on it.
I know bigger is not always better but the LS1 boys and there 408 CI motors typically rund big high240-low250 duration cams on wide LSA's and SUPPOSDELY have great street manners. I know TUNNING is a big part of getting it to run smoother, idle better, and to improve the driveablity
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From: NC
Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
what kind of tranny are you running? a TH 350 or 400 will put around the 2500 rpm range at 55 mph with a 3.42 gear. a 700 r-4 will put you in the 1800 rpm range, but it wont stand up to a 396. i have tore my 700 out 3 times in my 87 iroc with a 350. if you are looking for streetability, keep the duration down.
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Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
How about a cam guys approach to this....
Actually the cam like anything is only part of the puzzle here. Drivablity has to do with low RPM, low airflow (read part throttle) TQ with a combination of overlap.
There are a ton of factors in getting a "cam" (really the whole system) to produce low RPM part throttle TQ, drive correctly AND work to make power. Compression is just one of them.
We get into all of these DCR threads, but in reality that is one of the reasons that a motor can work well at low RPM. The problem is you need to balance that out with the timing needed to run the motor well and not have detonation. Compression is one of the biggest factors in a motor making low RPM part throttle TQ. Cubes is another one, one reason why a stroker can "take more cam" and still be drivable.
Overlap is another part of all of this... in reality LSA means nothing compared to overlap. You need some overlap to make power at WOT at high RPM. Problem is most setups I have seen can't make the valvetrain work at high RPM anyways so they never see the benefits of more overlap for the application.
With that all said the key is to balance the overlap with the low RPM part throttle TQ to make something that is drivable AND make power.
I do agree with Ion on this topic... you have to be honest with yourself about what you want out of a setup. How much bucking you can handle all depends on the person. At the same time if you want a stock driving motor, well your not going to get the max effort setup in terms of power given the rest of the parts are the same. Some guys can run a LE3 setup on the street and they love it and want MORE! I designed it for motors that want RPM with very little consideration for drivability. The LE2 setup I think is the optimum for a street car, like the bears in the Goldylocks story it's just right. It can be too big for some guys, especially IF you don't want to spin the motor to 6500rpm or more. That's why we have the LE1 cam.
Same goes for "off the shelf" cams. A CC306 or GM847 cam I would put between the LE2 and LE3 interms of application. They need to be run in a motor that you want to twist to 6500rpm or more and they have very little low RPM TQ for drivability. (that's why I put them between the LE2 and LE3) If you do things right with the whole system you can run a little more duration and overlap and still have the cam drivable.
The middle ground cams like the Comp 467 (230/236 113LSA) or Comp 503 cam (224/230 112LSA) and GM 846 (I'd put these cams between the LE1 and LE2 cams) I would say are very drivable cams but you need put them in the right application. You're not going to have the optimum in valve motion and compression ratio most times for these cams and you really should twist both of them over 6000rpm (up to 6500rpm with the 467) to make them work, but they are what I would group as a drivable good performing cam range.
The smaller cams like the GM 845, CC 305, Hotcam and the other "small" cams are actually great cams for a lot of applications. Small rear gears and low stall converters are perfect for these cams. They are going to drive as close to stock as possible and have no ill side effects. Your not going to make stupid HP with them, it's not going to rev to the moon and it's not going to lope.... BUT it will have decent gas milage, you can change less parts in the car (stall, gears) and drive them to work everyday.
Obviously I'm partial to "custom" cams. You can balance all the aspects of the system much better and get more power out of the setup, but you really need to be in that middle ground cam area or better to gain from them.... you can either get more power or useable RPM (which to me is worth more) or a little better drivablity for a bigger cam setup.
The point here is to be honest with what you want in a setup. Personally if I'm driving a car everyday or on long road trips I want a very tame cam that makes great power... basically the cam GM would have put in the motor if they had a bigger budget for the motor and no emissions regulations.
Bret
Actually the cam like anything is only part of the puzzle here. Drivablity has to do with low RPM, low airflow (read part throttle) TQ with a combination of overlap.
There are a ton of factors in getting a "cam" (really the whole system) to produce low RPM part throttle TQ, drive correctly AND work to make power. Compression is just one of them.
We get into all of these DCR threads, but in reality that is one of the reasons that a motor can work well at low RPM. The problem is you need to balance that out with the timing needed to run the motor well and not have detonation. Compression is one of the biggest factors in a motor making low RPM part throttle TQ. Cubes is another one, one reason why a stroker can "take more cam" and still be drivable.
Overlap is another part of all of this... in reality LSA means nothing compared to overlap. You need some overlap to make power at WOT at high RPM. Problem is most setups I have seen can't make the valvetrain work at high RPM anyways so they never see the benefits of more overlap for the application.
With that all said the key is to balance the overlap with the low RPM part throttle TQ to make something that is drivable AND make power.
I do agree with Ion on this topic... you have to be honest with yourself about what you want out of a setup. How much bucking you can handle all depends on the person. At the same time if you want a stock driving motor, well your not going to get the max effort setup in terms of power given the rest of the parts are the same. Some guys can run a LE3 setup on the street and they love it and want MORE! I designed it for motors that want RPM with very little consideration for drivability. The LE2 setup I think is the optimum for a street car, like the bears in the Goldylocks story it's just right. It can be too big for some guys, especially IF you don't want to spin the motor to 6500rpm or more. That's why we have the LE1 cam.
Same goes for "off the shelf" cams. A CC306 or GM847 cam I would put between the LE2 and LE3 interms of application. They need to be run in a motor that you want to twist to 6500rpm or more and they have very little low RPM TQ for drivability. (that's why I put them between the LE2 and LE3) If you do things right with the whole system you can run a little more duration and overlap and still have the cam drivable.
The middle ground cams like the Comp 467 (230/236 113LSA) or Comp 503 cam (224/230 112LSA) and GM 846 (I'd put these cams between the LE1 and LE2 cams) I would say are very drivable cams but you need put them in the right application. You're not going to have the optimum in valve motion and compression ratio most times for these cams and you really should twist both of them over 6000rpm (up to 6500rpm with the 467) to make them work, but they are what I would group as a drivable good performing cam range.
The smaller cams like the GM 845, CC 305, Hotcam and the other "small" cams are actually great cams for a lot of applications. Small rear gears and low stall converters are perfect for these cams. They are going to drive as close to stock as possible and have no ill side effects. Your not going to make stupid HP with them, it's not going to rev to the moon and it's not going to lope.... BUT it will have decent gas milage, you can change less parts in the car (stall, gears) and drive them to work everyday.
Obviously I'm partial to "custom" cams. You can balance all the aspects of the system much better and get more power out of the setup, but you really need to be in that middle ground cam area or better to gain from them.... you can either get more power or useable RPM (which to me is worth more) or a little better drivablity for a bigger cam setup.
The point here is to be honest with what you want in a setup. Personally if I'm driving a car everyday or on long road trips I want a very tame cam that makes great power... basically the cam GM would have put in the motor if they had a bigger budget for the motor and no emissions regulations.
Bret
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From: Europe
Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
Personally if I'm driving a car everyday or on long road trips I want a very tame cam that makes great power...
Bret
Bret
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From: In a house by the bay
Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
Different strokes for different folks.
I'm gonna go off the beaten path here a little and compare a couple of sport cruiser (motorcycles) I know real well. One being the Harley V-rod and the other, Yamaha's Warrior.
A recap for those of you who don't follow bikes....
V-Rod, ~115hp, 75 lbs-ft
Warrior, ~85hp, 100 lbs-ft
The V-Rod, while a v-twin revs to ~9k, where as the Warrior is all done at ~6k. Both bike will just about pull your arms out of socket when full-on, yet the Harley runs the quarter almost 1 second quicker than the Yamaha.
For my money, the Warrior is the most fun for about a city block but then the V-rod leaves you back there with the mopeds.
Torque = fun
HP = Not losing any races
Too much low-rev torque on the street however, when you're limited to a 275-315 series radial tire is not my idea of fun. I would rather be a little "soft" in the low revs so I can get the car into it's real powerband before I blow the tires away.
You can do a search and read of my encounters with my buddy's supercharged Viper GTS to see how that played out. Traction, is your friend.
That said, I wouldn't want to build a stroker with a 200-220 cam. But that's just me and for those who don't know... I'm different.
I think that with gas prices being what they are, people are going to think a little differently about the modifications they make to their daily drivers. That's probably a good thing.
-Mindgame
I'm gonna go off the beaten path here a little and compare a couple of sport cruiser (motorcycles) I know real well. One being the Harley V-rod and the other, Yamaha's Warrior.
A recap for those of you who don't follow bikes....
V-Rod, ~115hp, 75 lbs-ft
Warrior, ~85hp, 100 lbs-ft
The V-Rod, while a v-twin revs to ~9k, where as the Warrior is all done at ~6k. Both bike will just about pull your arms out of socket when full-on, yet the Harley runs the quarter almost 1 second quicker than the Yamaha.
For my money, the Warrior is the most fun for about a city block but then the V-rod leaves you back there with the mopeds.
Torque = fun
HP = Not losing any races
Too much low-rev torque on the street however, when you're limited to a 275-315 series radial tire is not my idea of fun. I would rather be a little "soft" in the low revs so I can get the car into it's real powerband before I blow the tires away.
You can do a search and read of my encounters with my buddy's supercharged Viper GTS to see how that played out. Traction, is your friend.
That said, I wouldn't want to build a stroker with a 200-220 cam. But that's just me and for those who don't know... I'm different.
I think that with gas prices being what they are, people are going to think a little differently about the modifications they make to their daily drivers. That's probably a good thing.
-Mindgame
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Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
Originally Posted by JustNO
You say you would get a tame cam, so in your opinion for a 383cid with 210cc AFRs what would be your cam choice if you will drive everyday and on long trip ??? ((I mean what would be the lowest limit (duration))
I'm putting together a 396 now that has mid 230's duration and should drive like a baby... basically this motor is something I would drive on a long trip with a 3.23 gear in the back of a A4.
All depends on the setup.
Bret
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From: Arkansas
Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
You know to be completely honest I have always heard using smaller cams only sacrifaces a small bit of upper RPM power, To me a smaller cam may have more Midrange TQ and HP opposed a big duration cam that only makes UPPER RPM power and no Torque.
I know SStrokerAce, Mindgame, and Joe Overton Tend to like smaller cams with high lift (HMMMMMMMMMMM
I also keep thinking about Joe Shermins Motor setup. He had high flowing heads 320CFM or so 234 size cam with a Super Vic in a 365 and made a little over 600 HP. I look at my setup a 396 with say 300 CFM head and a 234 at .610 lift and a Super Vic. So in a way wouldn't my motor be about the same in Power.
Joe didn't use a big cam in my opinion and still made a VERY power motor.
Of course this is not all it takes to make those numbers but for the most part in my opinion it can be done.
I know SStrokerAce, Mindgame, and Joe Overton Tend to like smaller cams with high lift (HMMMMMMMMMMM
I also keep thinking about Joe Shermins Motor setup. He had high flowing heads 320CFM or so 234 size cam with a Super Vic in a 365 and made a little over 600 HP. I look at my setup a 396 with say 300 CFM head and a 234 at .610 lift and a Super Vic. So in a way wouldn't my motor be about the same in Power.
Joe didn't use a big cam in my opinion and still made a VERY power motor.
Of course this is not all it takes to make those numbers but for the most part in my opinion it can be done.
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From: Charlotte, NC
Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
I think this tread might risk people picking tooo small of a cam.
With anything like a 220-230 degrees your probally going to notice a mpg or 3 drop in fuel mileage but you shouldn't loose any driveablity nor should you loose any low end torque.
If your picking a camshaft over 230 degrees your going to start making compromises on torque and driveablity.
Of course cubic inches will tame any cam back down. a 220/230 about cam will act like a baby baby cam and you might not be able to hear a lope at all in a 396 for example.
What I would reccomend would be for the customer to actually talk to someone who does it for a living OR better yet talk to someone who doesn't sell parts.. I do not sell any parts so I have no problem telling you what does what and if your going to waste your money or not.
With anything like a 220-230 degrees your probally going to notice a mpg or 3 drop in fuel mileage but you shouldn't loose any driveablity nor should you loose any low end torque.
If your picking a camshaft over 230 degrees your going to start making compromises on torque and driveablity.
Of course cubic inches will tame any cam back down. a 220/230 about cam will act like a baby baby cam and you might not be able to hear a lope at all in a 396 for example.
What I would reccomend would be for the customer to actually talk to someone who does it for a living OR better yet talk to someone who doesn't sell parts.. I do not sell any parts so I have no problem telling you what does what and if your going to waste your money or not.
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From: SoCal
Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
Originally Posted by Alvin@pcmforless.com
Of course cubic inches will tame any cam back down. a 220/230 about cam will act like a baby baby cam and you might not be able to hear a lope at all in a 396 for example.
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Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
Originally Posted by SS MPSTR
You can grind a 220/230 cam to lope in a 396. The generality is misleading.
What Alvin was saying is a 220/230 cam (read normal cams of today).
We could go round and round. We could talk GM vs Ford vs Chrylser cams , big block small block and how there all affected. What we are talking about here is a 350 -396 LT1/4 motor with a Hydraulic roller cam. And yes you can grind a cam to do whatever you want, but most people go to Forums or Comp Cams, Crane etc. . That is the norm as thats what people here are referring to.
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From: Charlotte, NC
Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
Originally Posted by SS MPSTR
You can grind a 220/230 cam to lope in a 396. The generality is misleading.
Not considering most people here use the same off the shelf cams.. You can also not tune the car right and let the thing lope... so your point?
Last edited by Alvin@pcmforless.com; Sep 7, 2005 at 05:35 PM.
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From: SoCal
Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
Originally Posted by Steves396lt1
Yes, if you use a old Musclecar cam from the 60's. There designs back then were fatter cams, and higher compression motors were the morn. Now, its high lift shorter duration.
Originally Posted by Steves396lt1
What Alvin was saying is a 220/230 cam (read normal cams of today). We could go round and round. We could talk GM vs Ford vs Chrylser cams , big block small block and how there all affected. What we are talking about here is a 350 -396 LT1/4 motor with a Hydraulic roller cam.
Originally Posted by Steves396lt1
And yes you can grind a cam to do whatever you want, but most people go to Forums or Comp Cams, Crane etc. . That is the norm as thats what people here are referring to.
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From: SoCal
Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
Originally Posted by Alvin@pcmforless.com
Not considering most people here use the same off the shelf cams.. You can also not tune the car right and let the thing lope... so your point?
Don't take it personally...nobody attacked your tuning ability.
Last edited by SS MPSTR; Sep 7, 2005 at 07:39 PM.
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From: Charlotte, NC
Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
Originally Posted by Alvin@pcmforless.com
With anything like a 220-230 degrees your probally going to notice a mpg or 3 drop in fuel mileage but you shouldn't loose any driveablity nor should you loose any low end torque.
Of course cubic inches will tame any cam back down. a 220/230 about cam will act like a baby baby cam and you might not be able to hear a lope at all in a 396 for example.
Of course cubic inches will tame any cam back down. a 220/230 about cam will act like a baby baby cam and you might not be able to hear a lope at all in a 396 for example.
Notice the words like and about?
I'm not taking anything personally.. I am pointing out what I said wasn't misleading as you blamed me for being.
Last edited by Alvin@pcmforless.com; Sep 7, 2005 at 06:41 PM.
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From: Martinez,CA
Re: Why do you choose a big cam if driveability is very important to you?
Originally Posted by madwolf
That's an interesting view on my post. I'm sure/hope other people who posted in this thread didn't see it as an attack since it wasn't meant to be.
I don't have any problems working on tuning any big cam, but again, this isn't the point of the post. It's just another thread continuing my previous cam suggestion related posts.
I don't have any problems working on tuning any big cam, but again, this isn't the point of the post. It's just another thread continuing my previous cam suggestion related posts.
Over all though, it has been full of great info and THE TRUTH!