if i had a scanner, i would scan the article...give me a few, it may be archived on the net.

 

The premise behind RL WW is that it's suppose to break the surface tension of the water. From what I've read, surface tension is what cause vapor to form on hot surfaces. Less surface tension and you get more efficient heat transfer and smaller vapor bubbles.
I remember when I first started reading this forum..... Chuck Riddeck (Mr HP) posted a long and very technical response in regards to cooling systems and I'm regurgitating some of what he said here...

Anyhow. Less surface tension = better heat transfer. Less surface tension also help the water release the heat when it passes through the radiator. So, where is the temp sensor located?
You got it. Right after the radiator. So it stands to reason that if it's cooler, the radiator is more efficient for some reason or another (less surface tension = more heat release).
Mount the sensor in the return side and I think you'd see a bit different reading.

Having used RL WW for years, my opinion is that it's a good product. On some tracks, it's about the only thing you can use.

-Mindgame

 

ok, couldnt find the article online, but i found this on a bulletin board...

When you add a detergent or product like Watter Wetter to your coolant, you are breaking the H-bonds of the water molecules. The H-bonds are a large part of the reason that water is such a good carrier of heat. When you add that crap, you reduce the water's ability to hold heat. This means that your coolant temperature will go down and give the APPEARANCE of running cooler. Your block and oil however, are actually running hotter. If you run a coolant temp gauge AND an oil temp gauge, you can see this happening. Just because the water temp gauge is showing a cooler temp, it does not mean the system is cooling any better. Address the problem at the root and avoid the quick fixes.

Antifreeze does reduce the heat-carrying capacity of the water, but not to a significant degree. The benefits of using antifreeze far outweigh the slightly dimished carrying capacity of the water. Ethylene glycol is a fairly polar molecule and it will interact with water molecules via the same H-bonds the molecules have with themselves. The main benefits of antifreeze are the freezing point depression which allows your coolant to not freeze solid and rip your block apart, the boiling point elevation which lets you cool your system under reasonable pressure and which keeps more of the coolant in liquid form and decreases hot spots, and finally the coolants ability to act as a lubricant as well as a neutralizer of the corrosive properties of the water.
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I think what Rhino was trying to say is that his gauge read 260, but that the engine as a whole system was actually running cooler because the product he added increased the heat-carrying capacity of his coolant. Just remember THE WATER TEMPERATURE GAUGE DOES NOT ACCURATELY REFLECT THE TEMPERATURE AT WHICH YOUR ENGINE IS ACTUALLY OPERATING! It CAN be an important tool, but it is better used to note trouble from a known baseline. I never understood why cars never came with an oil temp gauge, it would be MUCH more useful.

all i got for now....

 

ok fat kid, looks to me like its everyone against you. Where did you get your info, the inquirer, or the star. You shouldnt come on here and say half-assed stuff that is not proven when there are so many others that know otherwise.

 

Tests conducted by Garrett Racing Engines and published in Circle Track magazine. Some of this is data from Circle Tracks article, some from Garrett's actual testing....

vapor bubbles on a metal surface can create an insulating layer that impedes heat transfer. Releasing these vapor bubbles from the metal surface can imrprove heat transfer properties in this area by as much as fifteen percent. As an example, an aluminum bar heated to 304 degree Farenheit under 15 pounds of pressure (to simulate actual engine coolant conditions) to indentify the different cooling properties of liquids.
This comparison represents lowering of the coolant temperature in a system from 304 degrees F down to 214 degrees F (the boiling point of water in the system under 15 pounds per square inch of pressure).

The following are the results of the test.

Time Required
Red Line Water Wetter only---------3.2 seconds
Red Line WW & water mix------------3.7 seconds
RL WW & 50:50 antifreeze mix------10.2 seconds
Glycol coolant only---------------------21.0 seconds

Cooling System Fluid---Stabilized Temperature F
50% Glycol/50% Water----------------------228 degrees
50:50 Glycol and Water Wetter------------220 degrees
100% water-----------------------------------220 degrees
Water and Water Wetter-------------------202 degrees

In summary, the coolants when compared to the base 3.2 second time using only Red Line Water Wetter: When Water Wetter was mixed with water required 15% longer, a mixture of 50:50 antifreeze and WW took 220% longer, and glycol-only took 550% longer. These tests were done to demonstrate the heat transfer ability of the different coolant solutions as compared to Red Line's Water Wetter solution.

Another way to measure coolant temperatures is through the use of an engine dynamometer. Test results from Malcom Garrett Racing Engines using a Chevrolet 350 ci V-8 engine with cast iron block and aluminum heads, running at 7,200 engine rpm for three hours (using 160 degree thermostat) were as follows:

Performance Properties of Coolants

a) Water + Red Line
b) 50% glycol
c) 70% glycol

Increase in cylinder head temp

a) baseline
b) +45ºF
c) +65ºF

Increase in Octane (RON) requirement

a) baseline
b) +3.5
c) +5.0

Change in Spark Timing for Trace Knock

a) baseline
b) -5.2ºF
c) -7.5ºF

Change in Torque

a) baseline
b) -2.1%
c) -3.1%

Under moderate load conditions for every percent of glycol in the engine coolant it will raise cylinder head temperature by 1º. An example of this is a solution containing 50% glycol will raise the cylinder head temp by 50ºF.
This increase in temperature will raise the octane required for trace knock levels by nearly 3.5 octane numbers.
One thing that needs to be understood is the effect of higher combustion temperatures on pre-ignition and detonation. The higher the combustion chamber temoperatures the higher the octane rating of the fuel must be to prevent pre-ignition and detonation. Since the octane level of the available fuel is limited the spark timing must be retarded to compensate for the increased temperature. Retarding the spark will, in turn, affect the amount of peak torque available from the engine.
Higher engine temperatures also reduce the density of the incoming fuel mixture. This, in turn, reduces the engines torque output even further. It is because of these factors that it is important- especially in racing engines- to control the coolant temperature inside the engine.

More info than we needed but I didn't want to take too much out of context..... else someone will ultimately cry "foul".

From my own experience with racing engines, I can say that RL WW does in fact allow more spark timing, slightly leaner mixtures, less chance of pre-ignition and detonation. The test doesn't exactly explain "how" the stuff works but I really don't care as much about the how as I do the results. Good stuff IMO.

Oh BTW, welcome to the board Fatkid.

-Mindgame

 

Fat Kid, I think if you really believed what you just posted you'd be getting a lawsuit together about false advertising, not posting that stuff here. I did a search for "watter wetter" on yahoo, and could not come up with one negative thing about it...... Where did you get that article from?

John

 

Maybe everybody should read this. The article was written by a Ph.D. in Heat Transfer. He uses water wetter even though he did not do any scientific testing on it but rather based his conclusion through his knowledge of heat transfer.

http://e30m3performance.com/myths/mo...ter_wetter.htm

 

like a "Fat Kid" in dodgeball.

 

Good stuff.

Yes, fat kids = more surface area = bigger target. Not good qualities for aspiring dodge ball players.

-Mindgame

 

Good to see you back MG!

Do you have info about the Royal Purple coolant additive? Just curious, because its a little more convinient than RL WW to find.

edit: info or input

Ryan

 

hey, lost the thread for a while...anyways

just want to clarify that the problems i am describing are for when water wetter is ADDED TO COOLANT! i thought that was a given for this debate, but i read what you guys said and realized there was some confusion. water wetter, when used STRAIGHT WITH WATER is Awesome! but, if joe shmoe adds it to his 91 camaro, it is pretty useless and will actually cause you to get hotter (as i described). another downside of using just water wetter and water is that there is NO corrosion protection (which antifreeze provides). if you dont care about that, run WW straight with water and you will be golden. but dont bother adding it to antifreeze, it will just make the engine hotter and is pretty useless.

 

I just don't understand this arguement.

If you have coolant/WW running through the block, at say 100 degrees, and the engine at 200 degrees (and climbing), the water will raise its temperature to the engine's temperature until they reach an equilibrium. Granted the water is cooler when it enters the engine, and hotter when it exits and gets to the radiator to shed its heat, but I don't understand how anything could go into the engine and not absorb heat.

There are two temperature sensors. One is in the water pump, for the PCM readings, and the other is between cylinders #1 and #3, which is relayed to the dashboard.

 

Im thinking the same thing.

 

facts:

All it is is a detergent that interferes with the H bonding of water molecules. Some Tide or Dawn would have the same effect. In breaking these bond, you are disrupting the ability of the water to carry heat, ie the more broken H bonds, the less energy the water can carry before turning to steam. There was a study (that you can probably find if you do a search) that showed oil temperature increased with the addition of WW. Sure, the coolant read lower, because it was not as efficient at removing the heat, but the heat was just transferred to another part of the system. Regardless, WW is not going to solve any cooling problems and should not be considered a substitute for a properly-maintained system.

 

I can admit I did notice that in my buddies vettehe added it to his coolant and the oil temp went up and the pressure went down. it did not help his heat problem though. althoughI have heard many good results, so I have not temp problems so I'm gonna stay the way mine is