Ok, I'm at my wits end so I'm finally asking for help.

This is for a '96 Camaro Z-28 M6

I installed a Moroso blue battery box in the spare tire well with a BRAND NEW Optima Red Top with a Moroso disconnect switch (pushrod going through the tail light.)

At first we ran 2 gauge wire from the battery to the switch. From the switch to the starter. Power from starter to dist block on fender, power from alternator to dist block on fender. From battery ground to the rear frame. Ground from the block to the frame. Ground from block to ground dist block on fender, etc, etc.

Everything was quality wire, and quality connectors/terminals with GOOD crimps.

Car would not start, the starter would click RAPIDLY. VERY fast.

So we figured there was too big an amperage drop from the 2 gauge. So I upgraded to 2/0 gauge, and that didn't change anything.

Changed the starter to a new Napa unit. Changed the ignition switch. Swapped out the theft deterrent relay.

Nothing has made a difference.

However I have an underhood pushbutton switch that I use to turn the motor over while adjusting valves. I can turn the motor over and start it EVERY time with this switch. But the key won't do it everytime. In fact it does it maybe 1 in 10 times. The other 9 out of 10 times it does the very rapid clicking.

So it is narrowed down to the ignition switch to the theft deterrent relay.

The theft deterrent relay has been swapped from another car to mine and back and it works in the other car, so the theft deterrent relay is ruled out.

We ran power straight to the purple wire (which goes to the starter solonoid) and this turns the motor over fine, every time. So from the theft deterrent relay, things are fine.

There are four wires in the theft deterrent relay:

Purple (power out to starter solonoid)
Brown (switched power from clutch safety switch)
Yellow (switched power from ignition switch on collumn)
yellow/black *small wire* (from Body Control Module) (I think the BCM grounds this wire)

So as far as I can tell this is a "normal relay" but it doesn't have constant power and is double switched. The BCM grounds the relay (through the small yellow/black wire) once it sees that the resister in the key is the right one. The yellow wire from the igniton switch powers the relay once you turn the key. The brown wire from the clutch safety switch triggers the relay and lets the power flow to the purple wire to the starter solonoid.

So now we are down to the ignition switch (which was replaced with a brand new GM piece) and the clutch safety switch. I pulled the clutch safety switch out and bypassed it with a piece of wire. No change.

So now we have replaced, bypassed, or tested all pieces with no luck.

WTF? Any clues?

 

I had the same problems after the battery relocate on my 96. First I tried 2 AWG with good crimped connections. Then I used high quality solder connectors and 2/0 and the car would still not start all the time. Sometimes it would just click. I replaced the battery with an new Optomi red and it still did the same thing. Finally I went with an aftermarket starter(CVR). No problems after that.

 

Thanks for the reply and the information.

However I CAN get it to start EVERY time when I use the underhood bump switch. So the battery, the cable, the starter, all are fine. It has to do with the factory ignition switch/starter circuits.

 

TTT

<groveling> please help </groveling>

 

It sounds like your not getting enough juice from the battery. Does the underhood pushbutton switch that you use to turn the motor over bypass the clutch saftey switch, BCM and, theft deterrent relay? If it does this my be why you can turn the motor over with it, because current has less wire to travel through. Also I would want to check the battery to make sure it has a full charge. Another thing you can check is to make sure none of your connections are attemting to ground out any where. To check this get a volt-meter and check the restance of the wire runs that you installed.

 

The underhood pushbutton is wired this way:

16 gauge wire from positive dist block on fender to keyed switch, 16 gauge wire out of keyed switch to pushbutton switch, out of pushbutton switch down to small terminal on starter (same as purple wire.)

There is about an 8"-10" run from positive dist block to keyed switch. 3" from keyed switch to pushbutton switch. 20" from pushbutton switch to starter.

The keyed switch and pushbutton switch are on that small triangle brace for the hood support right next to the fender and the battery.

So it is pulling a direct 12 volts, but there is some resistance and it is dropped down to about 8.5-10.5 volts by the time it is at the starter... same as the factory purple wiring.

The battery is fine. Red Top Optima fully charged with a digital Die Hard battery charger. I've been keeping it on Auto charge 2 amps while this testing has been going on. The battery stays at 12.2-12.7 volts.

The battery does drop to 9.5-10.5 while cranking though.

 

I had the exact same problem while installing the alarm. the "dinging" sound would chime VERY fast at the same time that the starter would click VERY fast. The battery ended up being weak. Try jump starting the car, your Optima may not be as charged-up as you think.

 

Thank you for the reply and help keeping this post up top.

But please read before responding...

The car starts EVERY time with the underhood bump switch.

The battery is charged up fine. I have a $230 digital battery charger tending to the battery.

But bottom line the battery relocation and wiring is correct and works fine.

My problem has been isolated to the system starting at the key to the theft deterrent relay.

One more weird thing. This just started. While putting the car back together I noticed that one of my front indicator lights is out (the larger bulb) so I replaced it. I had the "wrong one" in there compared to the book at the auto parts store. The bulb is a dual filimant bulb and the "normal on" filament was burned out. The turn signals worked and worked properly.

Now when I turn the turn signals on, the flast normally for the first flash or two, then slow down to an obviously slow pattern.

 

First, don't assume cause you have the battery hooked up to a charger that it is good. Always check the battery with a load test when you're done charging. Particularly when diagnosing a problem.

I'm concerned else where you said the battery voltage was down to 8.5 volts at the starter. And that it drops to 9.5 at the battery when you crank the engine. 9.5 is too low period. What is the rating of the battery for both cranking and cold cranking amps? Either the battery is rated too low or it is not charging all the way.

As far as the Theft Deterrent Relay, remember that the clutch switch provides power to the relay coil on the brown wire. The coil is provided the ground from the BCM on the yel/black wire. Obviously if the BCM ground is bad, the relay will also have a bad ground. The ground point for the BCM is located on the post under the dash on the driver side under the kick panel. Should be 2 wires there with ring terminals.

A valid test would be to put a jumper in the TDR from pin C1 to A2, that is from the yellow wire to the purple wire on the back of the relay. This will bypass the clutch switch and the BCM. If it cranks like normal, the rest should be easy.

You do need to check to see where you are loosing the voltage from the battery up to the engine bay. I highly suggest that if the terminations on the cables were not done by a factory, that you solder them not just crimp them. Otherwise they will corrode over time. See what the voltage is from the positive cluster on the passenger fender to a clean ground on the engine. You want to see about 12.6V.

I would suggest you put the battery feed directly to the positive cluster on the passenger fender and distribute it from there. Be sure where you ground the battery in the back has a straight shot to the engine bay. Don't put it to a piece of tin that is welded to god knows what and then try to pick it up front off the frame rail. Ground it to the same piece in front and back if possible. Also check the ground strap at the engine side to be sure it is clean.

Sure wish I could help you, I haven't had a good electrical problem to work on in a while.

Let us know what you find.

BTW, Where is Chico CA?

 

I'm curious about this too because I'm relocating my battery soon. Just wondering, do you have welded in subframe connectors? Some people seem to think they help in this situation, I've got them and hopefully they will help. Also if you don't mind me asking, where there any problems fitting the Moroso box in the spare tire well, did you just bolt it to the bottom of the well? I was looking at that one or the Summit aluminum box, I didnt think the Moroso would fit.

 

I have 0 gauge hot and grounds both running up to the front of the car. The hot wire goes to the starter that I ran the same 0 gauge to the dist block on the fender. The ground is grounded at the starter bolt at the bottom of the starter. I also have 8 gauge ground from the engine block (bare metal) to the ground distribution block on the fender. I also have a 4 gauge ground at the frame in the back where the battery is mounted. Another thing you might be missing is the alternator wire. I run 4 gauge fine strand battery cable all the way from the back of the alternator to the battery. This keeps my battery charged up great. With my setup it has the same voltage characteristics as the stock location. BTW I have an Optima Red Top as well. Try to rewire your alternator and see if that helps. Also run the grounds like I did and see what happens.

Good Luck and let us know when its fixed
Matt

 

And thank you for all your help, but the problem is solved.

It was the small yellow/black wire from the Theft Deterrent Relay (TDR) to the BCM (body control module) which grounds the TDR through the BCM. So we just soldered on a "jumper" wire from the terminal at the TDR and grounded it to the factory grounding stud on the inside passenger door/closeout panel.

All solved, no more problems. Thanks again for helping.


Chico, CA is northern California. About 2 hours north of Sacramento. I however am in Lincoln, CA now, which is about 30 minutes north-east of Sacramento.

I do have welded in subframe connectors, as well as a welded in rollbar. But my door bars are removeable and not in the car now. I wonder if having them in would help?

As for the Moroso battery box. I hate this stupid thing. And no it did NOT fit in the spare tire well at all. I cut the entire floor out of the spare tire well and welded in a new plate to bolt the battery box to. And the top of the Moroso Battery box sucks. It is a MAJOR PITA to bolt down. I think they have changed it since so you can just screw it down, but on mine you have to put this device through each hole, place a piece of rubber hose over the threaded part and then thread a nut on. Then clamp the device over to hold the lid on tight. Rediculous.

Actually what is rediculous is having to put this Optima in a sealed battery box in the spare tire well. I wish I could have gotten away with the BMR battery tray...

I used to have my 15# nitrous bottle in the spare tire well, and was planning on keeping it there over the battery box, but I could not sink the battery box enough. So now my nitrous bottle is in the "trunk" and I'm not happy. If I knew how much trouble that battery box was going to be, I would have left my nitrous bottle in the spare tire well and mounted a nice battery box in the trunk, taking up less space.

In my last post I mentioned my turn signals acting weird. That problem seems to have been solved, but now I have a new oddity.

My car came equipped with fog lights, but I removed them and installed the vents instead. However when I turn the foglight switch on, my right blinker (the larger bulb in the corner lense with the dual filament bulb) goes bright. As if the blinker is on, but not blinking, and the turn signal indicator in the dash goes on and stays on. This only happens with the lights turned on...