Bersaglieri

Seems like a lot of people have questions/issues about machine work and building motors. With the growing age of LT1's rebuilds and build ups are becoming commonplace. I figured I'd make a thread addressing some of the questions and then do a step by step picture thread on assembling the short/long block later. Everyone add suggestions or information as needed.

I've been going around getting advice, prices, and some bull**** from the local engine/machine shops. I wanted to post some machine work and prices to see what everyone thinks. I also want to describe each item listed on the list. If I am describing it wrong, feel free to correct me and I'll edit it.

I'll be adding to the thread as time progresses. This will be my first bottom end build. I have a guy helping me assemble it who has built several 600-1000hp motors for a local speed shop.


Shops and Prices [Although I am listing prices, understand in a high performance rebuild machine work is the worst place to cut corners or save a buck]

Shop 1 - Machine shop that sells Performance Parts.

Shop 1 thinks that stock LT1 cranks are inferior to Scat and Eagle Cast cranks and that I should buy a rotating assembly from them. They claim a cast crank rotating assembly will handle a 500hp motor with a 150-200 shot of nitrous. They also said the stock computer cannot handle camshaft sizes over 230 degrees intake duration.

Hot Tank, Magnaflux, Clean - $95
Bearings - Rod, Mains, Cam, etc - $160
Align Bore - $185
Balance - $200
Rebore w/TQ plates - $155
Deck Block - $155
Square Deck - $285
Install Bearings and Plugs - $48
Stroker Clearance - $75
Assemble - $200-300
LT1 block with 4 bolt mains - $300

Shop 2

Shop 2 interrupted me as soon as I said 600-700hp small bock and said "...you're going to crack the block, and no one around here does 4 bolt mains you need to send it out of state." He went on to say I needed to get a Dart or World block. I said I wished they made one for the LT1, at that point he become infuriated. He started yelling into the phone that he knew what he was talking about and to call Dart if I didn't believe him. I politely said, "I think we are finished here" and hung up.

Prices: ?

Shop 3

Shop 3 was good to talk to, although he was kind of confusing. I explained I wanted to do higher horsepower 383 build and he said things like "Oh yea we'll have to turn you crank and recondition those rods". But then he recommended 4 bolt splayed caps.

Hot Tank - $65
Bore/Hone - $100
Turn Crank $75
Cam bearings/plugs - $45
Splayed 4 Bolt - $600 [Caps/bolts included]

Shop 4 I ultimately chose this shop because of it's good reputation in the area and knowledge of performance builds. They also didn't try to persuade me to build a motor I didnt really want or sell me parts or services I really didn't need.

Shop 4 was the easiest to talk to. He understood the goals I had and the work I was requesting and why I wanted it. He recommended square decking to equalize the compression ratio. But first he wanted to calculate the theoretical dynamtic/static compression ratio to decide on how much to deck the block and what gasket to run. He also wanted to mock the rotating assembly to check the piston to valve clearance with the heads and camshaft before decking the block. This made sense rather than blindly decking the block and then having possible clearance/compression issues later. He also spoke about getting the quench area figured out to get the most from the motor. Basically Shop 4 talked more about the big picture and getting everything to work together. We even talked about blueprinting the motor which no one had spoke of until now. We talked about concerns and issues that other shops either ignored or didn't seem to care about.

Hot Tank/Magnaflux - $60
Bore/Hone - $100
Bore/Hone TQ plate $150
Cam Bearings/Plugs - $40
Deck - $120
Square Deck -$200
Splayed 4 bolt - $550 [Caps/Bolts included]

Shop 5

Shop 5 was called by a local friend of mine. He relayed to me that they didn't think decking was necessary, but they would check it. The also didn't think 4 bolt mains were necessary. They seemed to him more like a stock rebuild shop.

Hot Tank - $60
Bore/Hone - $120
Cam bearings - $40


Questions to address

What do typical small block builders/shops not know/understand about LT1 blocks and how should we address this?

So what do I need to know or get from the machine shop for a high power build?

Do they need to correct the cam oil groove?

Is Square Decking necessary or just highly recommended? I feel this is necessary if your wanting to get the most out of your motor. If you are on a budget you don't need this, but if your doing the build "right" I think it is necessary.

How about boring with a Torque plate? Honing with a torque plate?

Should I get my stock 2 bolt block splayed or use a straight 4 bolt LT1 block?

At what point does the block need O-ringed?

Questions answered

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The Build

My particular build will be a Solid Roller 383 LT1.

Current part list:
Callies Stealth Crank 3.750 Stroke 10/10
Eagle H-beam 3D Rods 6" L19 bolts
Mahle Piston Pack -5cc flat top 2v relief
Custom Solid Roller Camshaft
LT1 Block with 4 bolt splayed caps or LT1 block with straight 4 bolt mains
Ported LT1 Heads and LT1 Intake Manifold
Comp Cams Solid Roller Lifters 888-16

Glossary

Let's address what machine work is necessary and what each does.

Bearings and Freeze Plugs: These are replaced during a typical rebuild. Cam bearings, rod bearings, main bearing, and freeze plugs are all found in the short block. A short block would be considered the engine below the head gasket to the oil pan.

Align Bore: This basically aligns the bores of the main caps to insure they are true. Typically done when aftermarket caps, such as 4 bolt splayed, are used.

Balance: This basically insures that the rotating assembly [Crank, Rods, Pistons] are in balance with the movement of the crank. Material is either added or removed as necessary. Motors can be internally or externally balanced.

Bore and Hone: Typically refers to the cylinder walls being "shaved" of material to insure the cylinder is true. Honed refers to the cylinder walls being "smoothed" and fine tuned if you will. Using a Torque plate simulates having the head bolted onto the cylinder which tightens the tolerances since bolting the head onto the block can distort the cylinder walls. Boring is usually measured in increments like this: .030 over, .040. over, etc. You will need to know this when you order pistons/rings for your new motor.

Decking: Decking the block is when you "shave" the head mating surface of the block. This can be used to achieve a desired piston depth in the block such as zero decked. This is important to obtain desired quench and compression ratio.

Square Decking: A more precise method of decking the block. It insures the block is decked evenly from corner to corner. Eliminates some pistons being further in the cylinder than others therefore insuring the same quench, compression ratio, and spacing for each cylinder.

Hot Tank, Magnaflux, Clean: - Basically what goes on here is the block is cleaned and prepped for machine work. A chemical bath may be utilized. Magnafluxing is a method of testing the block for structural flaws.

Assembly: This is where the engine shop will assemble the motor. In some cases this may include file fitting rings, degree a camshaft, torquing fasteners to spec, and checking clearances. Motor can be blueprinted which entails taking measurements of nearly all clearances of the motor.

Turning the crank: This is similar to turning rotors. You are giving the crank a new, even, smooth mating surface. Many cranks get turned 10/10, your bearings choice will reflect the amount removed from the crank.

-Dustin-

95Blackhawk

I have no idea what you intend to do with this engine but probably safely assume this is not a grocery-getter. If not the PCM will, for most applications, work however if you are going above 7K RPM, it is best to look at aftermarket alternatives since you cannot program additional changes to the spark/fueling above it.

Bersaglieri

Right, but to say the car will not function with a 230+ degree camshaft is incorrect.

Updated.

-Dustin-

thewhite97z28

Why not try Golen Engines I heard they are awesome when it comes to building LT1's. They appeared on magazines and there quality, price, and power options are great.

Bersaglieri

I've actually visited Golen's shop in New Hampshire. It's a nice place with good people, but I'm building the motor and it makes no sense to ship a block to them for just machine work. This isn't a typical off the shelf kind of build either.

This thread isn't asking for engine shop suggestions it's more about informing and publicizing what a typical LT1 owner goes through when trying to do a rebuild.

-Dustin-

JAKEJR

Oh, okay. So this is for informational purposes, not for reecommendations and suggestions. I see now.

May be a good thing too, because the chances of getting universal agreement would be between slim and none.

Jake

stockssn2o

I have worked at a machine shop for 4 years now and i can answer any question you have about building an lt1 ... i have built 3 for my self and countless numbers of them at the shop...
The first thing you need to do is get your block baked, blasted, and magnafluxed( hot tanking is generally not done in my area any more this is the alternative)

Second thing If you are planning on making any kind of horsepower over 350 @ the wheels i would suggest splayed caps (we charge 600 for the eagle caps, arp studs, installation and line boring)there are a couple more options for caps but these are the cheapest and work great. I have seen several 400-700 hp lt1s that did not have splayed caps and though none of them were really hurt they weren't in great shape.. once you start making power the stock main caps start walking back and forth on the block ..even with studs
i would recommend torque plate honing ... a torque plate is used to simulate a cylinder head being bolted on ... when you torque it down it pushes the cylinder walls out a little and makes it round when the heads are torqued and the engine is running
The block should be decked according to the compression heightof the piston, stroke and rod length to get the right quench and compression ratio (the block truing fixture aligns the deck off the mains and the cam bore which is ideal but not really 100% neccesary)
The block needs to be clearanced
The rotating assembly needs to be balanced and i would suggest internal balancing (stock is internal on the front and external on the rear so make sure your machine shop zero balances your flywheel if they internal balance it or get an internal balance one)
Then the block should be cleaned, cam bearings installed, freeze plugged, oil galley plugged, rings filed, bearing clearance set and put together

I would not use a 4 bolt block i'd definately splay it... the splayed caps are billet and make the block alot stronger...the only 2 4 bolt blocks i've seen spun the three center main bearings ...

i've never "corrected" an oil grove on an lt1

o ringing is old school get a set of head studs and MLS gaskets

thewhite97z28

Well your thread title can mean both, please be detailed then.

stockssn2o

i can say this ... when we put my old engine in my car it wouldn't run right at all untill it was tuned
it was a 385 with a custom comp 232/238 @ .050 .578/ .587 on a 112 lsa
but it can be tuned and run fine ... mine made 400 rwhp with that cam

rskrause

Comparing prices w/o having some idea of the quality of the work is meaningless. Some work is priceless, other work may be worthless.

Rich

Bersaglieri

stockssn20: Thank you, those are the kind of informational posts I am looking for in this thread. Can you specify plugging the oil galley? Are you talking about limiting oil drain back to only the front and rear drains?

Only one shop said skip the 2 bolt and buying the 4 bolt Vette block and go straight to billet 4 bolt splayed caps [Shop 4]. He said the same things you did, that it might survive, but it wont be pretty in there.

At what point are head studs and a MLS gasket needed?

Is it based on cylinder pressure, compression, nitrous or a combination of all three?

I currently have ARP head bolts and Mr. Gasket .026 gaskets. They are returnable but I need to know soon. I've also hear many issues with getting heads studs to seal properly.

JAKEJR: Yes, this is informative for the most part. There will always be difference of opinions, but I'll try to keep this thread on track.

rskrause: I was hoping for some moderator style wisdom. I can't agree more, although I'm not so much comparing prices as listing them for other folks to reference. I'm sure you'll agree machine work is the last place you want to cut corners on your build. I'll add that to the original post.

I'm kinda hoping this thread will show up in a search and answer a lot of the common rebuild questions that people have. [Typical prices, typical methods used, and understanding why]

Keep the information flowing.

-Dustin-

stockssn2o

on an lt1 you don't need oil restrictors... just put the stock style oil galley plugs back in and it'll live forever they have no oiling problems there are a few tricks you can do to make oil pressure a little higher that we like to do but it's not necessary..... we do it when we clearance a block 5 minutes with a grinder and 10 more psi of oil pressure
Arp bolts should be fine i put them in my engine with mr gasket mls gaskets.... and i'm shooting for 800 horse at the wheels on bottle.... the studs are just better imo.... we've had no problems with head studs "sealing" an lt1 is just like a sbc in lots of ways the head bolt pattern being one of them and they generally don't blow gaskets

$1800 is a rough estimate i made up at the shop ... for all the machine work with splayed caps and assembling it thats install splayed caps, line bore and hone, bore, tp hone, deck, clearance, clean cam bearing freeze plug, balance, assemble race type shortbock

Kevin Blown 95 TA

My machine work was about $1800. It included a little head cleanup and I did all assembly. The guys were real nice but put the wrong main caps on there and didn't listen to me about getting the ones for pass side dipsticks so there was interference with that and I had to make it work because they didn't know what to do. They also told me my pan and windage tray wouldn't work, but I also made that work just fine. They apparently did a good job of the machine work though because I checked everything - the advantage of doing my own assembly. You never know when the machineist has a bad day or is hungover or sick or whatever and if he assembles the entire motor for you, he might hide stuff if he was unscrupulous. Not saying this happens often but not too many guys here bring their cars to the dealer for repairs for a reason and machine shops can have problems too.

It included:

Bake and blast the block
Magnaflux and sonic check
Bore & hone with plates & studs
ProGram splayed caps, align bore and hone with studs
Strap for the front cap
Deck the block
Freeze plugs, oil plugs, & cam bearings
Polish and lighten the crank
Balancing of rods, pistons, and crank
Fit piston wrist pins
Surface the heads
Clean and face valves and 3 angle valve job, pressure check, check guides & hone if necessary

AdioSS

stockssn2o's posts seem dead on

96SSIndeed

I've heard that sometimes the studs had a problem of backing out over time. You heard anything about that?

Also glad this thread was started, i'm getting a lot of good tips on what to have done to my block when i take it to the machine shop