LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
05-15-2006, 04:31 PM
#121
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Louisiana, USA
Posts: 1,582
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Tim, you hit the nail on the head. Most people on here want to run 10'sN/A and still get 20mpg, A/C blowing, drive like a totally stock car and pull 1.3 60's on drag radials all while spending under $3,000. When I look at most of the fast LS1 cars they are 3,000#'s, $1,000 intake and TB's, $700 rockers, A/C delete, ABS delete, manual racks etc... So there is alot of time and money tied up in these cars and it's hard to compete with them w/o spending the same kind of time and money. I have done buisness with Joe Overton and Lloyd Elliott so I can say they are both standup guys and have helped me run quicker. I actually helped with the first LE1, LE2 getting started with getting Joe and Lloyd together. Later Clint
05-16-2006, 01:24 AM
#122
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 45
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Being a Cnc machinist for the last 12 years I just kind of laugh when people think that just because a head is ported by a Cnc mill its far superior than a hand ported one. Sure you can't beat the repeatability of a Cnc but any machinist knows that castings are never the same. If you want a max effort cylinder head hand porting is the way to go. What most people don't realize is that you can't fully take advantage of Cnc porting until casting technology gets better and is more consistant. It is very hard to have max effort ports repeated if the castings themselves aren't even repeated.
05-16-2006, 07:29 AM
#123
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Long Island, NY ; Norfolk, VA
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Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by fast 93 z
I am glad I stuck with the LT1 platform all these years. Now with the ability to convert to single plane intakes and standalone engine management....the possibilities are endless.
Tony Shepherd
Tony Shepherd
05-16-2006, 09:48 PM
#125
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Long Island, NY ; Norfolk, VA
Posts: 1,542
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Dennis At Airflow Development.. lol.. It's a toss up.. What i gather from all this is both are very potent package's, and both have excellent repoire w/ they're customer base.. So the choice is ultimately upto you.. I know Joe o personally, hell of a guy and def know's his ****.. I know Bret as well, he steered me toward's my current porter, and IMO was the right choice.. Either one will get you good result's.. you just need to decide what your looking for.. and choose between one or the other as they're packages' are very similar...
lol.. It's a toss up.. What i gather from all this is both are very potent package's, and both have excellent repoire w/ they're customer base.. So the choice is ultimately upto you.. I know Joe o personally, hell of a guy and def know's his ****.. I know Bret as well, he steered me toward's my current porter, and IMO was the right choice.. Either one will get you good result's.. you just need to decide what your looking for.. and choose between one or the other as they're packages' are very similar...
05-16-2006, 10:44 PM
#127
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cuyahoga Falls, OHIO
Posts: 870
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by formula14.18
whats ai web site looking at getting head cam soon like to see my choices
05-16-2006, 11:59 PM
#128
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Ocala, Florida
Posts: 3,245
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by Javier97Z28
I really do think that's a good way of looking at it.
I just want to get past the average 11 second heads/cam car I'm so tired of seeing..... sometimes, not even that :/ At least I broke 11's broken
Unfortunately here in S. Florida there's really no good "shops" no good "tuners".. and really no fast LT1's to share information with.
I just want to get past the average 11 second heads/cam car I'm so tired of seeing..... sometimes, not even that :/ At least I broke 11's broken
Unfortunately here in S. Florida there's really no good "shops" no good "tuners".. and really no fast LT1's to share information with.
Alot of people say hes one of the best tuners out there...
05-17-2006, 12:41 AM
#129
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 45
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally posted by A/G: "BTW, I didn't state the CNC was superior, did I? The point, is what you already stated, they are equal or consistant. The ports in the head you get, is the same as what I get, any variation in witness marks notwithstanding"
Talk about a guilty conscience. First of all, I just made a general statement because of all the ignorance about cnc machining. I am a career machinist. I run a variety of cnc mills,lathes,mill turns including Mori Seike,Mazak,Okumas and more.
"In those 12 years you've machined... cylinder heads?"
No. Cylinder heads aren't the only things that are made by a casting process.
I guarantee the machinist that is running the cnc mill that is porting the heads isn't concerned about flow numbers,he is concerned about holding given tolerances.
"I've heard the logic, you can hand grind a port beyond what the CNC program will mill. Some ports on some heads, yea. But what is the point?"
The point is very simple, if I were to write a program for a 180cc port I could machine pretty much any stock casting without fear of thin walls. Now if I were to write a program for a 215 cc port I would more than likely run into problems with thin walls on certain castings. Thus my statement: "What most people don't realize is that you can't fully take advantage of CNC porting until casting technology gets better and is more consistant."
"Also, you're telling me the guy doing the hand porting knows how thin that port wall is becoming, any better than the milling cutter in the CNC machine?"
Um yeah,humans have eyes machines don't. Before a head porter starts porting he can judge the head through experience and determine the maximum amount he can port before he runs into trouble all while trying to get the flow numbers he is looking to get. This is a little more complicated with a cnc mill because everything is based on the center of the port. The casting can be off center to the left,right,up,down. This combined with other variables is why you could run into trouble.
Talk about a guilty conscience. First of all, I just made a general statement because of all the ignorance about cnc machining. I am a career machinist. I run a variety of cnc mills,lathes,mill turns including Mori Seike,Mazak,Okumas and more.
"In those 12 years you've machined... cylinder heads?"
No. Cylinder heads aren't the only things that are made by a casting process.
I guarantee the machinist that is running the cnc mill that is porting the heads isn't concerned about flow numbers,he is concerned about holding given tolerances."I've heard the logic, you can hand grind a port beyond what the CNC program will mill. Some ports on some heads, yea. But what is the point?"
The point is very simple, if I were to write a program for a 180cc port I could machine pretty much any stock casting without fear of thin walls. Now if I were to write a program for a 215 cc port I would more than likely run into problems with thin walls on certain castings. Thus my statement: "What most people don't realize is that you can't fully take advantage of CNC porting until casting technology gets better and is more consistant."
"Also, you're telling me the guy doing the hand porting knows how thin that port wall is becoming, any better than the milling cutter in the CNC machine?"
Um yeah,humans have eyes machines don't. Before a head porter starts porting he can judge the head through experience and determine the maximum amount he can port before he runs into trouble all while trying to get the flow numbers he is looking to get. This is a little more complicated with a cnc mill because everything is based on the center of the port. The casting can be off center to the left,right,up,down. This combined with other variables is why you could run into trouble.
05-17-2006, 02:51 AM
#130
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 2,001
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by bhop42
"Also, you're telling me the guy doing the hand porting knows how thin that port wall is becoming, any better than the milling cutter in the CNC machine?"
Um yeah,humans have eyes machines don't. Before a head porter starts porting he can judge the head through experience and determine the maximum amount he can port before he runs into trouble all while trying to get the flow numbers he is looking to get.
Not to mention that the metal "sings" when you are getting thin...
Sonic checking is another way...
05-17-2006, 07:16 AM
#131
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 2,931
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by bhop42
Originally posted by A/G: "BTW, I didn't state the CNC was superior, did I? The point, is what you already stated, they are equal or consistant. The ports in the head you get, is the same as what I get, any variation in witness marks notwithstanding"
Talk about a guilty conscience. First of all, I just made a general statement because of all the ignorance about cnc machining. I am a career machinist. I run a variety of cnc mills,lathes,mill turns including Mori Seike,Mazak,Okumas and more.
"In those 12 years you've machined... cylinder heads?"
No. Cylinder heads aren't the only things that are made by a casting process. I guarantee the machinist that is running the cnc mill that is porting the heads isn't concerned about flow numbers,he is concerned about holding given tolerances.
"I've heard the logic, you can hand grind a port beyond what the CNC program will mill. Some ports on some heads, yea. But what is the point?"
The point is very simple, if I were to write a program for a 180cc port I could machine pretty much any stock casting without fear of thin walls. Now if I were to write a program for a 215 cc port I would more than likely run into problems with thin walls on certain castings. Thus my statement: "What most people don't realize is that you can't fully take advantage of CNC porting until casting technology gets better and is more consistant."
"Also, you're telling me the guy doing the hand porting knows how thin that port wall is becoming, any better than the milling cutter in the CNC machine?"
Um yeah,humans have eyes machines don't. Before a head porter starts porting he can judge the head through experience and determine the maximum amount he can port before he runs into trouble all while trying to get the flow numbers he is looking to get. This is a little more complicated with a cnc mill because everything is based on the center of the port. The casting can be off center to the left,right,up,down. This combined with other variables is why you could run into trouble.
Talk about a guilty conscience. First of all, I just made a general statement because of all the ignorance about cnc machining. I am a career machinist. I run a variety of cnc mills,lathes,mill turns including Mori Seike,Mazak,Okumas and more.
"In those 12 years you've machined... cylinder heads?"
No. Cylinder heads aren't the only things that are made by a casting process.
I guarantee the machinist that is running the cnc mill that is porting the heads isn't concerned about flow numbers,he is concerned about holding given tolerances."I've heard the logic, you can hand grind a port beyond what the CNC program will mill. Some ports on some heads, yea. But what is the point?"
The point is very simple, if I were to write a program for a 180cc port I could machine pretty much any stock casting without fear of thin walls. Now if I were to write a program for a 215 cc port I would more than likely run into problems with thin walls on certain castings. Thus my statement: "What most people don't realize is that you can't fully take advantage of CNC porting until casting technology gets better and is more consistant."
"Also, you're telling me the guy doing the hand porting knows how thin that port wall is becoming, any better than the milling cutter in the CNC machine?"
Um yeah,humans have eyes machines don't. Before a head porter starts porting he can judge the head through experience and determine the maximum amount he can port before he runs into trouble all while trying to get the flow numbers he is looking to get. This is a little more complicated with a cnc mill because everything is based on the center of the port. The casting can be off center to the left,right,up,down. This combined with other variables is why you could run into trouble.
Many of us talk about things we don't know much about, but act as if we do. After a while that becomes quite obvious. Well, it does to me anyway. You don't fit that catagory, IMO.
This has been an entertaining thread, hasn't it? With over 3900 hits so far, the board owners probably love it.
05-17-2006, 07:34 AM
#132
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Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Jupiter (NPB), Fl
Posts: 3,852
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Originally Posted by speed_demon24
Your wronge about the tuner part, Jeremy formato is coming to south florida the 23-24th of june, and I'm gonna have him tune my car. Alot of people say hes one of the best tuners out there...
Alot of people say hes one of the best tuners out there...I'm up to seeing what kinda results you get, looking forward to it b/c I'd love to see a dynotuner worth a damn in the area.
05-17-2006, 09:01 AM
#133
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Red Oak Texas
Posts: 1,509
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
When a head has core shift, it is usually on the entire head so if everything is shifted to the left or right or even completely centered, you have the have the CNC set to work with all of these.
Grab a set of LT1 castings and feel the difference in push rod pinches and that is a good start to what way the core is shifted. Look in the water jackets and also how well the guide is centered in the guide boss. On top of this, you can "hear" it getting thin like mentioned. The CNC doesn't "look" or "listen" for these things as mentioned.
There are a few areas in an LT1 heads that you just can't gete as large as you would want and getting these areas as large as you can make them is what you are after.
Say you have a CNC that removes .050 from each of these side walls to make sure you do not fall through on a head with left or right core shift. Hand porting will allow you to remove the .050 from the 1 wall and then .150 from the other wall to end up at a larger measurement. If the casting is centered, you can get .100 from each wall.
The only people that will understand how and why hand porting will give better results are the people that port heads, have ported heads before or just understand casting variances and how important the larger measurements in these areas are.
ANYONE that thinks the CNC port job is superior can just ask the shop offering heads this way if they can possibly hand finish them for any better results. They will tell you that they can and charge you more. The CNC allows a good portjob to be produced very quickly at a good price.
As far as the "pressure" being put on anyone, it will be put on the shop charging more $$$ to prove their head is worth the extra $$$. Charging $300-$400 less and feeling I offer a head that makes a lil more power, I feel VERY comfortable and in no way under pressure. That is why I stated several times to offer heads for the back to back comparison. I would like to see the actual results myself. We have both seen each others heads and if we wanted to change anything we do, we would. we just have different oipinions on what the heads need to feed the engine.
Each potential customer will have to decide if the extra $300 to $400 is worth the 5 to 10 HP that is gained/lost for that $$$ After the comparison we would KNOW the HP difference and if you are gaining or losing 5-10 HP with my heads.
Lloyd Elliott
Grab a set of LT1 castings and feel the difference in push rod pinches and that is a good start to what way the core is shifted. Look in the water jackets and also how well the guide is centered in the guide boss. On top of this, you can "hear" it getting thin like mentioned. The CNC doesn't "look" or "listen" for these things as mentioned.
There are a few areas in an LT1 heads that you just can't gete as large as you would want and getting these areas as large as you can make them is what you are after.
Say you have a CNC that removes .050 from each of these side walls to make sure you do not fall through on a head with left or right core shift. Hand porting will allow you to remove the .050 from the 1 wall and then .150 from the other wall to end up at a larger measurement. If the casting is centered, you can get .100 from each wall.
The only people that will understand how and why hand porting will give better results are the people that port heads, have ported heads before or just understand casting variances and how important the larger measurements in these areas are.
ANYONE that thinks the CNC port job is superior can just ask the shop offering heads this way if they can possibly hand finish them for any better results. They will tell you that they can and charge you more. The CNC allows a good portjob to be produced very quickly at a good price.
As far as the "pressure" being put on anyone, it will be put on the shop charging more $$$ to prove their head is worth the extra $$$. Charging $300-$400 less and feeling I offer a head that makes a lil more power, I feel VERY comfortable and in no way under pressure. That is why I stated several times to offer heads for the back to back comparison. I would like to see the actual results myself. We have both seen each others heads and if we wanted to change anything we do, we would. we just have different oipinions on what the heads need to feed the engine.
Each potential customer will have to decide if the extra $300 to $400 is worth the 5 to 10 HP that is gained/lost for that $$$ After the comparison we would KNOW the HP difference and if you are gaining or losing 5-10 HP with my heads.
Lloyd Elliott
05-17-2006, 10:01 AM
#135
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,525
Re: LE2 setup vs. AI 190cc
Regardless of the debate of CNC vs. hand porting vs. both, it's hard to argue with the results of Ai's CNC 190cc product. I can only imagine that hand finishing their CNC product wouldn't hurt anything. Whether any of the results justify $1 over the competitors is purely a personal choice.