Read what I posted..... the decision has to be based on how much flow you need at max RPM/engine load. A stock engine may not need much more than an basic electric pump can flow. A worked NA engine may need a high flow electric. An all out forced induction or nitrous motor will probably need a lot more than even the high flow electric can supply.

 

I read your post and understand what your saying, but I didnt get his graph or what he was trying to say.

Joe Overton runs a E-WP

-Dustin-

 

haha I like how some people seem to think the alternator creats a larger mechanical load.... It always spins as easy as it does at low rpm's it doesn't take extra mechanical power to run the alternator. Do any of you know what an alternator alternates? :-P

 

Joe ran NA.

 

An electric water pump will draw the same amount of current no matter what you do. that is the whole point. it spins the same speed at low rpms and high rpms. there is no extra load on your engine. If your electrical system can support the pump at idle it can support it at WOT unless you have some kind of huge voltage drop throughout the system which would cause all kinds of issues and would be more of an ignition problem rather then the pump drawing energy. the pump is like this turn it on it is pumping. turn it off and it is not. Give the engine all the gas you want. the pump is just spinning the same speed the whole time.

Determine the gpm flow that you need for your water pump. There is an electric version for any application. There are street use and drag race only pumps. if you think exectricity and motors are confusing then stick to stock but I take computers apart all day long, I have an electronic cert. and oiling a motor and keeping the brushes intact will make a motor last so long it is ridiculous. I have a fan that I have used for 20 years and we keep oiling the bearings in the motor when other people would just throw it away. the same with my bathroom fan that my father has had for 35 years. it siezes... We oil the bearings. Problem solved. ( another mistake people make is calling an engine a motor) An engine is an engine and a motor is an electrically driven device. Not in I.C.E. I live in boston and I sit in traffic quite a bit. I also get speeding tickets constantly for going like 50-35 all the time. I know with my 6speed and engine I will want the electric pump to pump constant gpm rates through the heads. I will be in neutral a lot with the engine at idle while coasting etc. This will keep my engine a LOT cooler then a mechanical pump which pumps 5-7 gpm at idle. 40 sounds like a much better number to me. Time at WOT will be rare and not prolonged enough to cause a huge problem. I dont have a super charger and my current engine can't handle enough nos to heat it up to that point.

For me... electric. DEcide if it is for you.

 

Don't try to divert attention from the issue with superfluous questions. The automotive alternator is an energy conversion device. It converts mechanical energy (power taken from the engine via a belt drive system) into electrical energy. It has a very low efficiency, ranging from ~65% at idle speed (1,800 alternator RPM - typically 3X engine RPM) to less than 50% at cruising speeds (6,000 alternator RPM). You can't take any energy out of an alternator, unless you put approximately twice as much mechanical energy into driving it. This energy comes from the engine's crankshaft.

 

Turn on the lights and air and you can bet your *** the alt is pulling HP from the engine.

I have seen 8HP on the dyno with a 40 amp alt. The one on an LT1 is way bigger than that(100AMP I think)

 

yes you are right about horsepower loss with high loads on the alternator. But what about the guys running huge amps and stereo systems??? That draws MUCH more power then a 60 watt light bulb... The electric water pump I have is about the equivalent of a 60 watt lightbulb. Does that take more power to run then the mechanical waterpump? not even including the simplicity benefits of the system after the conversion...??? The electrric waterpump runs consistantly and at a pre determined rpm. If your engine runs fine with it connected then it will always run fine with it connected unless you add somthing else which would mean whatever you are adding is the problem. Again, decide if you think it is right for your application. For me it is perfect. Already bought the timing cover seals and front seals for the project. just waiting on a new timing set to do the whole thing. It will be nice to get into the front of my engine and see how she looks. Going to do the electric wp, a new timing set and a fluidampr all at the same time. Should help out a bit..

 

The point of the graph is that the stock pump will pump 60 gpm at 6k rpm, no matter what the load. I use my car for a road course car, and electric pumps cannot flow enough. Even if they flow 50 gpm unrestricted, the pump will not flow 50 gpm due to the resistance in the system..for dragracers, 1/4 mile at a time, use the electric. IF you want more, be careful.

 

I too just bought an ED timing set from someone here who got it from Thunder. (I'm planning a '95 +MSD late opti, '95 timing cover, '95+ cam conversion.) The EP set I got has the etched numbers on the cam and wp gears, and has both the stock and oversize crank gear crank gears. But the pictures of trashed cam gear teeth scare me.

Someone said they called a Cloyes tech who was able to verify ED sets as old, new, good, and bad. I thought the ones with the etched numbers on the cam and wp gears were good ones. The cam gear I have doesn't soak up a magic marker, that is supposed to mean it isn't a powdered metal gear. Is that true, good, or bad? Or should I call Cloyes?

My thoughts so far;

- The wp drive gear is really turning some RPM because the WP gear is 2.5 - 1 to the cam gear. That means at 6000 engine RPM the WP is turning 7500 RPM. That's whizzing for such a small gear - and a water pump. I don't know of many water pumps that have good efficiency curves for such a wide range of pump RPM. Thus I wonder what the stock WP actually flows at 7500 RPM, it could easily be the stock WP's flow actually drops off at high RPM. The flow chart in this thread doesn't show the flow dropping off at high RPM making me kind of skeptical of the accuracy of that chart. Many times underdrive pulleys actually help WP flow by slowing them down from RPMs they were never intended to run at.

- Installing a new timing set in an engine with front cam bearing wear might not be a good thing, it affects the cam and WP gear relationship. The oversize crank gear would pull the cam down - compounding a potential problem. I wonder if the cam bearings should be new when installing a new ED set with a gear driven WP.

- The ED/stock cam gear is much heavier than a normal cam gear and rotating weight is a pretty big deal - it takes HP to spin up the extra rotating weight of the heavy cam gear, WP gear/shaft, and water pump.

- Potential harmonic vibration issues at the cam/WP gear teeth might be worse with a tight timing chain. Chain slack might help prevent transfer of crank tortional vibration to the cam gear. If this is true slack in the timing chain would stress the cam/WP gear teeth less.

- Engine oil has changed a LOT since the LT1 engines came out. The whole Extreme Pressure additive side of oil is different, just ask anyone trying to build flat tappet cam engines these days, it's scary. It could easily be the newer oils don't have the right or enough EP to prevent cam/WP gear wear.

-Oil supply at the cam/WP gear seems to be a potential problem. If I were to use the EP gear set I think I would run an Amsoil bypass filter with the return flow dumping on the WP gear though a fitting on the timing cover.

I don't want to pull the engine right now but obviously that would be the best thing to do, pull it and do a total rebuild. Right now I want to get the Firebird running right so my wife and I can take a 20th anniversary trip in it by the end of Sept. The car was a 20th anniversary present to ourselves and also fulfilled a vow I made to myself to get through four kids WITHOUT BUYING A MINIVAN! It looks like we made it, we dropped off our second oldest at college on Friday!

I think what I will do is order an electric water pump, (the 55gpm Miezere) and actually flow test it against the stock pump. It would be a free flow test on each pump measuring the gallons each flows in X time. If the Miezere can match the stock pump's flow at 7500 rpm there should be no problem and I will go with the Miezere HD and a ProGear timing set.

 

I think this is about the only reasonable post i've seen with a decent pro-ewp arguement. There are a few problems though, Oil hasn't changed enough to affect the gear, it is a reasonable thing to look into but I think youl'l find that there is ultimately nothing there, ask around on the bobistheoilguy forums though if you want to find out for sure. Yourwater pump test free flow is not a great test because the behavior of pumps changes a lot when there is a load applied, the pumps will behave almost like a compressor in a free flow environment whereas they will begin to do things much differently in a loaded environment where things like cavitation and slowing down of the electric motor due to load have their effect but at least you're planning on looking at something rather than just pulling **** out your *** as an excuse for why the EWP is better. The reason I say your test is poor is i've heard of 50+ gpm ewps flowing as little as 20 gpm once you get them on an engine dyno where they're actually loaded.

 

Thanks.

I build flat tappet cam engines and have spent a lot of time at Bob is the oil Guy plus have talked to oil manufacturers about EP additives.

Oil has changed even Comp has special recommendations for flat tappet cam oil. They recommend HD diesel oils (Shell Rotella T 15W-40) as the ZDDP are much higher than the automotive oils especially the 30 weight variants. Look at the VOA's at Bob is the oil Guy and see for yourself how much zinc and phos there is in automotive 30 weight variants compared to good racing oils, V-twin motorcycle oils, and diesel oils. You will kill a flat tappet cam if you run that low EP additive stuff, it is intended for Hyd roller cam use only.

I would say the cam/wp gear application is one that demands a higher level of EP additives than the current 30 weight automotive variants offer. There is a fair amount power being transferred though that gearset.

On the water pump test I could throttle the outlet to simulate restriction even though I don't think that would make much difference. It would cut the flow for sure, it's just that the important thing would be to test both the same - both free flow - or both restricted flow.

 

It would be pointless to test them both in free-flow since they will never see that in a real world application. And there is a reason all of the road race guys stick with the stock waterpumps.

 

LT1 water pumps are basically free flow circulation pumps, all they have to do is circulate a loop of coolant which is much closer to free flow than a pump that is required to develop head pressure. The head pressure on an LT1 pump is zero since it's circulating a closed loop. Even the thermostat doesn't restrict flow in the LT1 like it does in a normal engine, look at the chart in this thread, the flow is pretty much the same in open thermostat and closed thermostat operation.

What is the flow friction discharge PSI using a stock LT1 pump?

Are road race guys losing cam/WP gear sets?

I looked at that WP gear again, it is less than .400 thick, the tips of the gear teeth are more like .375, that is a tiny gear to carry 10-15 hp at speeds close to 7500RPM. And some of you run the engine 7000RPM - that is 8750RPM on the WP gear!

How efficient do you think a water pump is at 8750 RPM??

Chevy LT1 - between a rock and a hard place.

Maybe I should pull the LT1 and drop in a Mopar....

 

good way of looking at it jesse. I agree and think because of the design an electric pump that is wired correctly would be a much more simple solution for circulating the water in our engines. I have the entire setup ready to go when I have the time to do it and somone to help me with the new timing set... I am thinking of doing it with the AIR relay circuit. not sure but if it is simple enough I will since it is so close and would leave less clutter.