Fuel injectors lb!!??
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 149
From: Chicago
Fuel injectors lb!!??
I'm gona attempt to convert my fuel to E85, I'm tired of spending this creazy money on 103+ octain. I need to upgrade the fuel injectors. Does anyone know of any place that sells injectors higher than 50lbs?
Administrator
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 71,112
From: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 149
From: Chicago
Re: Fuel injectors lb!!??
True when comparing 91 octain pump gas...here in Chicago 93 Oct is $4/gal., 100 Oct - $7/gal and 106 Oct - $11/gal.
E85 is 104-106 OCT at $1.50/gal. Even if I double my gas consumption I will be spending $3/gal for 105 OCT.
I need to raise my injectors by 20-40% from 44lbs to 60-80lbs. I already have (Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump) just need the injectors to make it work.
...also not to mention that the engine runs 20-30 degrees cooler when runing ethenol through it. As soon as the toon on it is done and I figure out this BOV issue I will post the update/video.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 149
From: Chicago
Re: Fuel injectors lb!!??
With that said, if anyone needs a set of new ACCEL #44 fuel injectors, engine has maybe 5hrs on it and less than 20 miles on it with these injectors. They work great just not enough flow for my monster.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 349
From: Westminster, CA
Re: Fuel injectors lb!!??
You may have verified this as well but did not mention in your post. As ethanol is more corrosive than gasoline, E85 requires different fuel hoses, o-rings, fittings, etc.; e.g., it will corrode brass and aluminum fittings. Also more of an issue in boats but relatively small amounts of water (a cup of water in your tank) can cause the alcohol to come out of solution with the gasoline, called phase separation.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,942
From: Kissimmee, Fl, USA
Re: Fuel injectors lb!!??
You may have verified this as well but did not mention in your post. As ethanol is more corrosive than gasoline, E85 requires different fuel hoses, o-rings, fittings, etc.; e.g., it will corrode brass and aluminum fittings. Also more of an issue in boats but relatively small amounts of water (a cup of water in your tank) can cause the alcohol to come out of solution with the gasoline, called phase separation.
The corrosive effects of ethanol is, in general, grossly overstated. Methanol is a bigger concern in any engine and ethanol is a concern on older engine..older as in before 1988.
Last edited by bw_hunter; Nov 8, 2010 at 07:05 PM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 149
From: Chicago
Re: Fuel injectors lb!!??
Phase seperation isn"t a problem with ethanol...but a cup of water in a tank full is a big problem all it's own.
The corrosive effects of ethanol is, in general, grossly overstated. Methanol is a bigger concern in any engine and ethanol is a concern on older engine..older as in before 1988.
The corrosive effects of ethanol is, in general, grossly overstated. Methanol is a bigger concern in any engine and ethanol is a concern on older engine..older as in before 1988.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,497
From: Orem, UT
Re: Fuel injectors lb!!??
The idea of E85 being corrosive is rediculous.
Ethanol naturally absorbs moisture from the air and that's what will rust some parts. If you don't let the car sit for long periods of time the moisure shouldn't completely seperate from the ethanol and gasoline.
The whole E85 community seems to be people who have never even touched E85 and just perpetuate the same claims. I decided to simply test how corrosive E85 is.
Here's some random materials I've had sitting in a jar or E85 for over 2 months. Nothing shows signs of corrosion. The E85 became foggy after a couple days but I believe this is just from the dirty parts and the cheap spray paint that was on the injector which disolved from the ethanol or gasoline. The rubbers feel lubricated and haven't swollen or cracked, the zip tie and wire insulation feel the same. None of the metals show any signs of corrosion whatsoever.
As far as I'm concerned, E85 is safe to run with the consideration of it's absorption of water. Any seperated water should self purge itself from the tank as it is heavier than ethanol and will be picked up and burned. Only the steel tank could be an issue over many years, I would imagine all flex fuel vehicles have a polyethelyene tank for this reason.
Ethanol naturally absorbs moisture from the air and that's what will rust some parts. If you don't let the car sit for long periods of time the moisure shouldn't completely seperate from the ethanol and gasoline.
The whole E85 community seems to be people who have never even touched E85 and just perpetuate the same claims. I decided to simply test how corrosive E85 is.
Here's some random materials I've had sitting in a jar or E85 for over 2 months. Nothing shows signs of corrosion. The E85 became foggy after a couple days but I believe this is just from the dirty parts and the cheap spray paint that was on the injector which disolved from the ethanol or gasoline. The rubbers feel lubricated and haven't swollen or cracked, the zip tie and wire insulation feel the same. None of the metals show any signs of corrosion whatsoever.
As far as I'm concerned, E85 is safe to run with the consideration of it's absorption of water. Any seperated water should self purge itself from the tank as it is heavier than ethanol and will be picked up and burned. Only the steel tank could be an issue over many years, I would imagine all flex fuel vehicles have a polyethelyene tank for this reason.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 149
From: Chicago
Re: Fuel injectors lb!!??
The idea of E85 being corrosive is rediculous.
Ethanol naturally absorbs moisture from the air and that's what will rust some parts. If you don't let the car sit for long periods of time the moisure shouldn't completely seperate from the ethanol and gasoline.
The whole E85 community seems to be people who have never even touched E85 and just perpetuate the same claims. I decided to simply test how corrosive E85 is.
Here's some random materials I've had sitting in a jar or E85 for over 2 months. Nothing shows signs of corrosion. The E85 became foggy after a couple days but I believe this is just from the dirty parts and the cheap spray paint that was on the injector which disolved from the ethanol or gasoline. The rubbers feel lubricated and haven't swollen or cracked, the zip tie and wire insulation feel the same. None of the metals show any signs of corrosion whatsoever.
As far as I'm concerned, E85 is safe to run with the consideration of it's absorption of water. Any seperated water should self purge itself from the tank as it is heavier than ethanol and will be picked up and burned. Only the steel tank could be an issue over many years, I would imagine all flex fuel vehicles have a polyethelyene tank for this reason.
Ethanol naturally absorbs moisture from the air and that's what will rust some parts. If you don't let the car sit for long periods of time the moisure shouldn't completely seperate from the ethanol and gasoline.
The whole E85 community seems to be people who have never even touched E85 and just perpetuate the same claims. I decided to simply test how corrosive E85 is.
Here's some random materials I've had sitting in a jar or E85 for over 2 months. Nothing shows signs of corrosion. The E85 became foggy after a couple days but I believe this is just from the dirty parts and the cheap spray paint that was on the injector which disolved from the ethanol or gasoline. The rubbers feel lubricated and haven't swollen or cracked, the zip tie and wire insulation feel the same. None of the metals show any signs of corrosion whatsoever.
As far as I'm concerned, E85 is safe to run with the consideration of it's absorption of water. Any seperated water should self purge itself from the tank as it is heavier than ethanol and will be picked up and burned. Only the steel tank could be an issue over many years, I would imagine all flex fuel vehicles have a polyethelyene tank for this reason.
Even if I have to replace the tank every 4-5 years the savings alone on race gas would buy me 5 tanks...LOL!
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 349
From: Westminster, CA
Re: Fuel injectors lb!!??
Not trying to get everyone worked up as I think it is a great idea but I see no reason to ignore the chemistry of what is going on nor bash books. Ethanol like other alcohols is distinguished by the hydroxyl (-OH) group. When disassociated with the chain of carbon, they are “free radicals” which are very reactive and corrosive (basic).
These react with and destroy aluminum and cupric oxides, which are the thin oxide layers that form on aluminum and copper (white and green respectively) and form a barrier to further oxidation (iron oxide is rust, iron oxide does not act as a barrier to further oxidation so iron rusts away.) They also react with various butyls (rubber compounds) by increased swell which (in theory) allows oxygen to penetrate and react with the butyls. While this has been documented as occurring, no theory as to the chemical reactions that I have seen. (Alcohol is also slightly conductive though I do not see how this would affect this discussion.)
The alcohol/water issue is miscibility (homogenous mixing at all proportions) and the ability of alcohols (and all carbon compounds) to do this increases with the shorter the carbon chain. The water stays in solution with the alcohol at all proportions, it does not separate; enough water and the gasoline (the 15 of E85) separates from the alcohol/water mix. You will not see any water in E85 any more than you see water in your scotch, you could measure it (specific gravity). Whatever proportion of water will remain mixed with the alcohol and will end up in the cylinders (water injection is used to increase mass flow on fired electric turbines, not sure if it has ever been used on or is good for IC engines?)
These are not vinegar and baking soda type reactions, none of these reactions are going to happen in 2 months at room temperature. Increased temperatures (say at fuel injectors in the manifold) and prolonged exposure (2-3+ years) will ultimately show signs of deterioration. Garage experiments aside, these are real chemical reactions that will happen eventually. The SAE, ASTM, UL, and NFPA (National Fire Protection Agency) have all either issued or are drafting specific codes to address E85 storage, dispensing and use to address these issues; these codes are looking at long term issues. Many of our cars still have original fuel system components after 15 years with very little failure because the materials used were selected specifically to handle gasoline; the reactive effects of ethanol exist, and since they are different than those of gasoline, require a different material.
These react with and destroy aluminum and cupric oxides, which are the thin oxide layers that form on aluminum and copper (white and green respectively) and form a barrier to further oxidation (iron oxide is rust, iron oxide does not act as a barrier to further oxidation so iron rusts away.) They also react with various butyls (rubber compounds) by increased swell which (in theory) allows oxygen to penetrate and react with the butyls. While this has been documented as occurring, no theory as to the chemical reactions that I have seen. (Alcohol is also slightly conductive though I do not see how this would affect this discussion.)
The alcohol/water issue is miscibility (homogenous mixing at all proportions) and the ability of alcohols (and all carbon compounds) to do this increases with the shorter the carbon chain. The water stays in solution with the alcohol at all proportions, it does not separate; enough water and the gasoline (the 15 of E85) separates from the alcohol/water mix. You will not see any water in E85 any more than you see water in your scotch, you could measure it (specific gravity). Whatever proportion of water will remain mixed with the alcohol and will end up in the cylinders (water injection is used to increase mass flow on fired electric turbines, not sure if it has ever been used on or is good for IC engines?)
These are not vinegar and baking soda type reactions, none of these reactions are going to happen in 2 months at room temperature. Increased temperatures (say at fuel injectors in the manifold) and prolonged exposure (2-3+ years) will ultimately show signs of deterioration. Garage experiments aside, these are real chemical reactions that will happen eventually. The SAE, ASTM, UL, and NFPA (National Fire Protection Agency) have all either issued or are drafting specific codes to address E85 storage, dispensing and use to address these issues; these codes are looking at long term issues. Many of our cars still have original fuel system components after 15 years with very little failure because the materials used were selected specifically to handle gasoline; the reactive effects of ethanol exist, and since they are different than those of gasoline, require a different material.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 149
From: Chicago
Re: Fuel injectors lb!!??
Todays technology takes away all the parameters which you are talking about. For example flex fuel engine are 100% identical to its twin gasoline engine. 100% the same, the difference comes in the sensors, computer and fuel delivery. A few months ago I was at Haggerty and they had a crashed Taho and the motor was yanked out so I was looking at it and I started talking to one of the tech there. 2010 Taho engine and 2010 Taho w/flexfuel engine has the same part number. Basically its the same car...gas cap different color, computer different software/tune and something with the gas tank...some have a optional generating transmission...the Hybrid option. Outside of that not much is different.
I understand the chemistry and I don't wana knock it down but it does work no matter what the book sais.
I understand the chemistry and I don't wana knock it down but it does work no matter what the book sais.
Administrator
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 71,112
From: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
Re: Fuel injectors lb!!??
How do you know that GM has not engineered the "same part number" engine so that is will stand up to ethanol if it is used in an E85 application? The fact that the engine uses the same part number does not mean that there are no materials of construction features to allow it to be used in either a straight gasoline or an ethanol blend. Those features would not have been engineered into an LT1 engine.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,942
From: Kissimmee, Fl, USA
Re: Fuel injectors lb!!??
Not trying to get everyone worked up as I think it is a great idea but I see no reason to ignore the chemistry of what is going on nor bash books. Ethanol like other alcohols is distinguished by the hydroxyl (-OH) group. When disassociated with the chain of carbon, they are “free radicals” which are very reactive and corrosive (basic).
These react with and destroy aluminum and cupric oxides, which are the thin oxide layers that form on aluminum and copper (white and green respectively) and form a barrier to further oxidation (iron oxide is rust, iron oxide does not act as a barrier to further oxidation so iron rusts away.) They also react with various butyls (rubber compounds) by increased swell which (in theory) allows oxygen to penetrate and react with the butyls. While this has been documented as occurring, no theory as to the chemical reactions that I have seen. (Alcohol is also slightly conductive though I do not see how this would affect this discussion.)
The alcohol/water issue is miscibility (homogenous mixing at all proportions) and the ability of alcohols (and all carbon compounds) to do this increases with the shorter the carbon chain. The water stays in solution with the alcohol at all proportions, it does not separate; enough water and the gasoline (the 15 of E85) separates from the alcohol/water mix. You will not see any water in E85 any more than you see water in your scotch, you could measure it (specific gravity). Whatever proportion of water will remain mixed with the alcohol and will end up in the cylinders (water injection is used to increase mass flow on fired electric turbines, not sure if it has ever been used on or is good for IC engines?)
These are not vinegar and baking soda type reactions, none of these reactions are going to happen in 2 months at room temperature. Increased temperatures (say at fuel injectors in the manifold) and prolonged exposure (2-3+ years) will ultimately show signs of deterioration. Garage experiments aside, these are real chemical reactions that will happen eventually. The SAE, ASTM, UL, and NFPA (National Fire Protection Agency) have all either issued or are drafting specific codes to address E85 storage, dispensing and use to address these issues; these codes are looking at long term issues. Many of our cars still have original fuel system components after 15 years with very little failure because the materials used were selected specifically to handle gasoline; the reactive effects of ethanol exist, and since they are different than those of gasoline, require a different material.
These react with and destroy aluminum and cupric oxides, which are the thin oxide layers that form on aluminum and copper (white and green respectively) and form a barrier to further oxidation (iron oxide is rust, iron oxide does not act as a barrier to further oxidation so iron rusts away.) They also react with various butyls (rubber compounds) by increased swell which (in theory) allows oxygen to penetrate and react with the butyls. While this has been documented as occurring, no theory as to the chemical reactions that I have seen. (Alcohol is also slightly conductive though I do not see how this would affect this discussion.)
The alcohol/water issue is miscibility (homogenous mixing at all proportions) and the ability of alcohols (and all carbon compounds) to do this increases with the shorter the carbon chain. The water stays in solution with the alcohol at all proportions, it does not separate; enough water and the gasoline (the 15 of E85) separates from the alcohol/water mix. You will not see any water in E85 any more than you see water in your scotch, you could measure it (specific gravity). Whatever proportion of water will remain mixed with the alcohol and will end up in the cylinders (water injection is used to increase mass flow on fired electric turbines, not sure if it has ever been used on or is good for IC engines?)
These are not vinegar and baking soda type reactions, none of these reactions are going to happen in 2 months at room temperature. Increased temperatures (say at fuel injectors in the manifold) and prolonged exposure (2-3+ years) will ultimately show signs of deterioration. Garage experiments aside, these are real chemical reactions that will happen eventually. The SAE, ASTM, UL, and NFPA (National Fire Protection Agency) have all either issued or are drafting specific codes to address E85 storage, dispensing and use to address these issues; these codes are looking at long term issues. Many of our cars still have original fuel system components after 15 years with very little failure because the materials used were selected specifically to handle gasoline; the reactive effects of ethanol exist, and since they are different than those of gasoline, require a different material.
Ethanol behaves differently. You can oxidize the molecule into Ethanal and water using chemicals like acidified Potassium Dichromate, acidified Sodium Dichromate or acidified Potassium Permanganate. Ethanal is characterized by the formula CH3CHO and is otherwise known as acetylaldehyde. This will further oxidize to ethanoic acid if the oxidizing agent is available in excess. Sure ethanoic acid, like any organic acid is slightly corrosive but you aren't going to make these things in your fuel tank....the oxidizers aren't there.
There is a reaction close to what you describe and that's a dehydration reaction. The ethanol reacts with concentrated sulfuric acid to from either ethylene and water or diethyl ether and water depending on which reactant is in excess and the reaction temperature. The reaction temperature are between 140 and 170 centigrade. Again, nothing to worry about in your car..you won't have concentrated sulfuric acid in your tank nor will you have temperatures on excess of 140C.
There are a lot more reactions available to ethanol but they all are extremely unlikely to occur in your tank due to exotic reactants or catalysts or elevated tempertures.
So, anyway, Ethanol is quite safe in your car engine, assuming the rubber components are up to the solvent 'powers' of an alcohol. This is the real concern of using alcohol fuels and has been addressed by all the rubber companies.
OK, I'm done. Agree, Disagree, it's all good with me...
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 284
From: Upland, Ca
Re: Fuel injectors lb!!??
Hey if you're interested, I've got a set of high impedance Siemens 60# injectors... stock EV1 connectors. They only have a few hundred miles on them, ALL on E85 
I need to step up to 83s as the 60s aren't going to be enough for the 250 dry I have planned for this motor, even at 60psi. I got these 60s to idle damn good on the stock pcm, btw. Send me a PM as I don't get on here much.
I need to step up to 83s as the 60s aren't going to be enough for the 250 dry I have planned for this motor, even at 60psi. I got these 60s to idle damn good on the stock pcm, btw. Send me a PM as I don't get on here much.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
chevroletfreak
LT1 Based Engine Tech
202
Jul 4, 2005 05:00 PM