Changed oil, misc stuff. INTERESTING FINDING!
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 305
From: JoCo KS
What you're seeing on your oil filler cap is "Emulsion", a white-ish oil & water mixture resulting from condensation in the valve covers.
My 2000 4.7L Dodge Durango exhibits this very problem. Check out these pictures, taken after driving the Durango for a week in below freezing weather back and forth to work (15-mile each way):
http://www.classicgaming.com/vcoleco...urango47_1.jpg
http://www.classicgaming.com/vcoleco...urango47_2.jpg
Looks bad eh?
And that is running Mobil 1 synthetic. Both the local dealer and I have dug around under the hood looking for problems with head gaskets, PCV-valve failure, etc and everything is mechanically sound and functioning normally. The real problem is short trips in cold weather. The air on the outside of the valve covers/oil cap is extremely cold while the air inside the valve covers is extremely warm, thus condensation builds on the inside of the valve covers and oil filler caps, which in turn is mixed with oil vapor from the crankcase and forms "emulsion" or "white sludge". In the case of my Durango 4.7L engine, it's more prone to this problem because the oil filler neck is plastic, about 10" tall, and positioned on the front of the engine about 6" from the clutched radiator fan assembly. Thus the fan makes things worse because it keeps blowing cold air across the plastic filler neck (where the PCV valve is connected) and emulsion builds even quicker. The only time I see this sludge build-up is in winter conditions where air temps are below 32 degrees and I drive very short distances (less than 15 miles of running time).
In my case with the Durango, I zip-tied some basic pipe insulation (from home depot) around the filler neck and it has cut down the sludge buildup by 80% (helps retain heat in the filler neck). Also, letting the engine idle for 10 minutes after short trips has helped significantly reduce the sludge as well. In the case of the Durango, the oil filler neck should be metal so that it holds heat better and positioned away from the clutched radiator fan. In the case of the LT1/LS1 engine I'd just make sure and run the engine longer so that it burns the sludge away rather than letting it build up.
Also, I changed the oil every 3 months or 3,000 miles (Mobil 1) and have yet to see any of that crap in filter or drained oil. Also, if you wipe the emulsion with a wrag you'll notice that it breaks down into almost nothing pretty easily (it's like 95% water and 5% oil vapor). This leads me to think that it wouldn't cause oil pump blockage because it's so volatile to the touch (unlike "burnt" oil sludge which is dark black in color and thick like tar).
That's my experience and $.02...
My 2000 4.7L Dodge Durango exhibits this very problem. Check out these pictures, taken after driving the Durango for a week in below freezing weather back and forth to work (15-mile each way):
http://www.classicgaming.com/vcoleco...urango47_1.jpg
http://www.classicgaming.com/vcoleco...urango47_2.jpg
Looks bad eh?
And that is running Mobil 1 synthetic. Both the local dealer and I have dug around under the hood looking for problems with head gaskets, PCV-valve failure, etc and everything is mechanically sound and functioning normally. The real problem is short trips in cold weather. The air on the outside of the valve covers/oil cap is extremely cold while the air inside the valve covers is extremely warm, thus condensation builds on the inside of the valve covers and oil filler caps, which in turn is mixed with oil vapor from the crankcase and forms "emulsion" or "white sludge". In the case of my Durango 4.7L engine, it's more prone to this problem because the oil filler neck is plastic, about 10" tall, and positioned on the front of the engine about 6" from the clutched radiator fan assembly. Thus the fan makes things worse because it keeps blowing cold air across the plastic filler neck (where the PCV valve is connected) and emulsion builds even quicker. The only time I see this sludge build-up is in winter conditions where air temps are below 32 degrees and I drive very short distances (less than 15 miles of running time).In my case with the Durango, I zip-tied some basic pipe insulation (from home depot) around the filler neck and it has cut down the sludge buildup by 80% (helps retain heat in the filler neck). Also, letting the engine idle for 10 minutes after short trips has helped significantly reduce the sludge as well. In the case of the Durango, the oil filler neck should be metal so that it holds heat better and positioned away from the clutched radiator fan. In the case of the LT1/LS1 engine I'd just make sure and run the engine longer so that it burns the sludge away rather than letting it build up.
Also, I changed the oil every 3 months or 3,000 miles (Mobil 1) and have yet to see any of that crap in filter or drained oil. Also, if you wipe the emulsion with a wrag you'll notice that it breaks down into almost nothing pretty easily (it's like 95% water and 5% oil vapor). This leads me to think that it wouldn't cause oil pump blockage because it's so volatile to the touch (unlike "burnt" oil sludge which is dark black in color and thick like tar).
That's my experience and $.02...
Last edited by BitCypher; Jan 21, 2004 at 01:54 PM.
Registered User
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 537
From: Watertown, Mass
BitCypher,
that is nasty! somehow your getting water in the motor. there is no water in new oil at all. it does not come from no where. with that much water in there i doubt that motor will last long and seize up sooner or later.
that is nasty! somehow your getting water in the motor. there is no water in new oil at all. it does not come from no where. with that much water in there i doubt that motor will last long and seize up sooner or later.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 327
From: Fairmount, GA
Originally posted by Fastbird93
Well, the thing is that the car is showing no tell-tale signs of coolant loss I.E. white smoke and/or coolant loss. I'm really hoping that's not the case, but if it is, then I may have a case against the builder of the head/cam package as he installed it and I've NEVER seen the car run right.
But another thing that leads me to believe it's not a head gasket or anything is that my perceived stumble/hesitation/misfire/whateveritis is ONLY present below about 3000 RPM and under FAST DEEP throttle movement. Part throttle driving is wonderful. It's almost like the problem is the computer moving from closed loop into PE mode.
Well, the thing is that the car is showing no tell-tale signs of coolant loss I.E. white smoke and/or coolant loss. I'm really hoping that's not the case, but if it is, then I may have a case against the builder of the head/cam package as he installed it and I've NEVER seen the car run right.
But another thing that leads me to believe it's not a head gasket or anything is that my perceived stumble/hesitation/misfire/whateveritis is ONLY present below about 3000 RPM and under FAST DEEP throttle movement. Part throttle driving is wonderful. It's almost like the problem is the computer moving from closed loop into PE mode.
Seriously though, your plugs, wires, etc. didn't take care of the mis? I'd be concerned at this point. How did the plugs look when you pulled them? If you had a blown head gasket a spark plug would surely be an indicator. Good luck.P.S. Get used to breakin' stuff...mine is apart more than its together...but then again maybe its just my driving
I blew a head gasket at the track last year about 5000 miles after I completed my motor, and didn't even know it until I started pulling plugs. I had no coolant loss that I could tell, and no white smoke (except on cold mornings). Go figure, I pulled the heads, and sure enough I had one shiny new piston next to 7 other carbon crusted ones. FUN STUFF....sounds like at least this car isn't your daily driver.
Last edited by bad96firechikin; Jan 24, 2004 at 05:10 PM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,827
From: Waynesboro, PA
Well, after about 800 miles I pulled the first set of plugs and they were FOULED. Just black.
I've had the car on datamaster, and it's just loading up on fuel on the right bank, and the left bank is loading up, but not as bad. I'm trying a pressure regulator, and then a pump, and if neither of those fixes it, it's dealership time.
I've had the car on datamaster, and it's just loading up on fuel on the right bank, and the left bank is loading up, but not as bad. I'm trying a pressure regulator, and then a pump, and if neither of those fixes it, it's dealership time.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,277
From: Orange Kounty, Kalifornia
Fastbird - Fouled black is carbon which is typically a rich mixture. Have you checked for an exhaust gasket leak? Any air that hits the O2 will trigger a false "lean" condition which the PCM will richen the mixture by adding more fuel.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,827
From: Waynesboro, PA
Yeah, been there done that. Just the mystery fuel load up on my car now. After it's running for a minute or so the right bank just starts to load up with fuel, and the LTerms got to 108. The computers trying to compensate, and leans it out as much as possible. The left side LTerms get in to the mid 11X range, which is still a lot more fuel than I'd like to see just sitting there at idle.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 537
From: McAllen Tx. USA
Fastbird,
I looked at your latest datalog, and although you added spark advance at idle, I suggest you go to at least 31 degrees. After that, you might want to change your injector offsets to a conservative 32.6#. Change it out, and run a datalog once again.
Also, have you done a compression check? That will tell you if you have a dead or semi-dead piston due to the possible head gasket failure.
Good Luck
I looked at your latest datalog, and although you added spark advance at idle, I suggest you go to at least 31 degrees. After that, you might want to change your injector offsets to a conservative 32.6#. Change it out, and run a datalog once again.
Also, have you done a compression check? That will tell you if you have a dead or semi-dead piston due to the possible head gasket failure.
Good Luck
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