AI200cc stock bottom end dyno results, 429rwhp with a miss
01-05-2008, 09:48 PM
#212
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Double Oak TX
Posts: 752
Wow guys, this whole thing really has gotten stupid at best. A bunch of people should be ashamed of themselves for being petty and small. Turned into a game of not who’s right, wrong or helpful, but an emotional display of kids being kids. Grow up!
The bottom line is no one holds a huge advantage over anyone but an evolutionary process showing incremental improvements by everyone. It still comes down to taking advantage of such improvements and making whatever you have work. Making a combo work is an art and just bolting on parts is not a recipe for success. There are no magic beans that grow giant bean stalks girls.
I posted three-four years ago about making 445 rwhp with a set of Lloyds LE2 heads and a milder GTP 6 cam on a 114 in a 383 combo and there were people ignorant enough to dispute that claim even though I probably had 300 dyno pulls (no exaggeration) to finally figure out what my combo liked, what I missed and what was wrong with the car to get that number. Get real!
No doubt that either LE or AI produces quality work, and that either won’t go to the ends of earth to make their clients happy. Don’t know the people at AI, but I know Lloyd quite well and never seen him say a bad thing about anyone. Never!! He does everything he can to put the best foot forward. His "machinist" once worked for the Nickens Bro porting Pro Stock heads and gets paid $3K for porting Viper Heads. Pretty low life right!!
The proper thing to do is say congratulations and stop the kids stuff. You’re lucky as hell to have people (vendors) whom give a damn and aren’t trying to screw you in a New York second. The industry is full of people talking smack while taking your money. Tell me, what credentials does it take to post a website telling ya exactly what you want to hear while taking your money. A GED, A HS diploma, Trade school, MBA, MD, EEE?…Not hardly.
Bless you’re lucky stars you have them and stop the pity stuff or they won’t be around for you to get drunk behind a computer showing how tuff or smart you are. How many heads have you ported BTW??? Own a flow bench do ya?? Get real!
The bottom line is no one holds a huge advantage over anyone but an evolutionary process showing incremental improvements by everyone. It still comes down to taking advantage of such improvements and making whatever you have work. Making a combo work is an art and just bolting on parts is not a recipe for success. There are no magic beans that grow giant bean stalks girls.
I posted three-four years ago about making 445 rwhp with a set of Lloyds LE2 heads and a milder GTP 6 cam on a 114 in a 383 combo and there were people ignorant enough to dispute that claim even though I probably had 300 dyno pulls (no exaggeration) to finally figure out what my combo liked, what I missed and what was wrong with the car to get that number. Get real!
No doubt that either LE or AI produces quality work, and that either won’t go to the ends of earth to make their clients happy. Don’t know the people at AI, but I know Lloyd quite well and never seen him say a bad thing about anyone. Never!! He does everything he can to put the best foot forward. His "machinist" once worked for the Nickens Bro porting Pro Stock heads and gets paid $3K for porting Viper Heads. Pretty low life right!!
The proper thing to do is say congratulations and stop the kids stuff. You’re lucky as hell to have people (vendors) whom give a damn and aren’t trying to screw you in a New York second. The industry is full of people talking smack while taking your money. Tell me, what credentials does it take to post a website telling ya exactly what you want to hear while taking your money. A GED, A HS diploma, Trade school, MBA, MD, EEE?…Not hardly.
Bless you’re lucky stars you have them and stop the pity stuff or they won’t be around for you to get drunk behind a computer showing how tuff or smart you are. How many heads have you ported BTW??? Own a flow bench do ya?? Get real!
MAN this thread went to ****, WOW.
Lloyd ported my RHS heads, we had a small problem with them and he made it right no questions asked. IMO he is a stand up guy.
My car makes GOOD power, I am very happy with the power it makes From the LE ported heads and BRE custom solid roller cam. If can get some weight out of the car and figure out the suspension some more it will run 10.80's all motor on pumpfuel @3700lb raceweight with a converter that is too tight. Is VERY streetable. Lloyd did me a good job.
With that said, were you happy with the power your LE heads made? Seems like you were.
How can you blame the head porter for cracked valve guides? That is YOUR responsibility to make sure that is correct as far as geometry etc. I dont see HOW in the hell he could be responsible for this in ANY way.
If I was Lloyd I would have told you to **** up a rope, they were already ported by someone else when he got them, so he did the best he could do to create HIS port over someone elses.....seems like he did a pretty good job.
The guide/geometry deal was your baby...but he stretched out to try and help you and you do this to him?
Come on man.
David
Lloyd ported my RHS heads, we had a small problem with them and he made it right no questions asked. IMO he is a stand up guy.
My car makes GOOD power, I am very happy with the power it makes From the LE ported heads and BRE custom solid roller cam. If can get some weight out of the car and figure out the suspension some more it will run 10.80's all motor on pumpfuel @3700lb raceweight with a converter that is too tight. Is VERY streetable. Lloyd did me a good job.
With that said, were you happy with the power your LE heads made? Seems like you were.
How can you blame the head porter for cracked valve guides? That is YOUR responsibility to make sure that is correct as far as geometry etc. I dont see HOW in the hell he could be responsible for this in ANY way.
If I was Lloyd I would have told you to **** up a rope, they were already ported by someone else when he got them, so he did the best he could do to create HIS port over someone elses.....seems like he did a pretty good job.
The guide/geometry deal was your baby...but he stretched out to try and help you and you do this to him?
Come on man.
David
01-05-2008, 10:35 PM
#214
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,800
Picture is worth a thousand words right?
LE2s [IMG
][/IMG]
Advanced Induction 200cc Trickflow.
I picked this one because it was the most direct picture I saw, closest to the angle of the LE picture.
Which looks like the better product?
AI has more pictures on their site if you want to look at their GM casting stuff or whatever, like I said though this Trickflow port was the closest comparable angle to the LE pictures posted here.
AI is a real professional race quality shop and you can have their product for about the same price as the first picture I posted
. http://www.stockcarracing.com/techar...c_cutting.html
http://www.ipnews.com/archives/apply.../aug07/dmg.htm
LE2s [IMG
][/IMG]Advanced Induction 200cc Trickflow.
I picked this one because it was the most direct picture I saw, closest to the angle of the LE picture.
Which looks like the better product?
AI has more pictures on their site if you want to look at their GM casting stuff or whatever, like I said though this Trickflow port was the closest comparable angle to the LE pictures posted here.
AI is a real professional race quality shop and you can have their product for about the same price as the first picture I posted
. http://www.stockcarracing.com/techar...c_cutting.htmlhttp://www.ipnews.com/archives/apply.../aug07/dmg.htm
Last edited by 96capricemgr; 01-05-2008 at 10:42 PM.
01-06-2008, 06:57 AM
#215
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Littlestown, PA
Posts: 1,903
--Alan
01-06-2008, 07:43 AM
#216
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Mobile, Ala..USA
Posts: 1,935
The only REAL way to test these "packages" is this
383 shortblock on an engine dyno
Select packages to test.
Run the same headers and ex
Have the same tuner present
Run the Complete topend package including cam TUNED
Then Swap them out
If no one is prepared to do that, well there is a saying I see in a sig on another board
"Without Data, it's just an opinion"
David
383 shortblock on an engine dyno
Select packages to test.
Run the same headers and ex
Have the same tuner present
Run the Complete topend package including cam TUNED
Then Swap them out
If no one is prepared to do that, well there is a saying I see in a sig on another board
"Without Data, it's just an opinion"
David
Last edited by FASTFATBOY; 01-06-2008 at 10:27 AM.
01-06-2008, 09:13 AM
#217
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Assembly Room
Posts: 90
Originally Posted by 96capricemgr
This really shows their commitment to excellence, and the efficiency required to bring the highest quality product to market at a competetive price. I would assume it also affords them the opportunity to further develope ports, while the equipment keeps cylinder heads going out the door on schedule.
01-06-2008, 10:43 AM
#218
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,525
01-06-2008, 11:20 AM
#219
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Ocala, Florida
Posts: 3,245
Um thats what I did except I'm on a stock bottom end. Same tuner, same shortblock, same boltons, ect. The only thing that was changed that has any affect on power was going back to the stock intake manifold, the heads, and the cam.
The only REAL way to test these "packages" is this
383 shortblock on an engine dyno
Select packages to test.
Run the same headers and ex
Have the same tuner present
Run the Complete topend package including cam TUNED
Then Swap them out
If no one is prepared to do that, well there is a saying I see in a sig on another board
"Without Data, it's just an opinion"
David
383 shortblock on an engine dyno
Select packages to test.
Run the same headers and ex
Have the same tuner present
Run the Complete topend package including cam TUNED
Then Swap them out
If no one is prepared to do that, well there is a saying I see in a sig on another board
"Without Data, it's just an opinion"
David
01-06-2008, 12:01 PM
#220
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,800
That does not matter because it was not the outcome they wanted.
Masnart39, glad someone gets this.
IMO port to port consistency is critical on port injected applications. Not like carbed applications where the air and fuel are mixed well upstream.
If one port flows more than the others on port injection it will be lean. I know this can happen in carbed stuff but the air and fuel being mixed before the port would soften the effect. The typical bank to bank wideband use will just result in a good average not proper individual cylinder fueling. Yes the intake is imperfect and will result in some missmatched flow but keeping as few inconsistencies as possible will make tuning easiest and most sucessful.
Masnart39, glad someone gets this.
IMO port to port consistency is critical on port injected applications. Not like carbed applications where the air and fuel are mixed well upstream.
If one port flows more than the others on port injection it will be lean. I know this can happen in carbed stuff but the air and fuel being mixed before the port would soften the effect. The typical bank to bank wideband use will just result in a good average not proper individual cylinder fueling. Yes the intake is imperfect and will result in some missmatched flow but keeping as few inconsistencies as possible will make tuning easiest and most sucessful.
01-06-2008, 12:41 PM
#221
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,525
It's no opinion that the machine work on the LE heads was crap (we can debate how guides become cracked all day long), and proof that it, with the valvetrain, lasted ~2000 miles. Pretty pathetic IMO.
I think this thread does a great service, and folks should be thanking Robert for spending $4k so they don't have to.
As Dwayne said, it isn't the results the LE folks wanted to see. The pictures that show the differences in work and attention to detail (or lack thereof) speak for themselves.
As Denny said, we all benefit in the long run by these comparisons and debates - it forces the bar higher and we all benefit as consumers whether or not you take the comparison for what it is worth. BTW, I never doubted your numbers, but look how long (and how much $$ spent) to get it 'right'.
As David has said, perhaps the only way anyone will 'accept' any comparison would be the test he suggested, but barring anyone from stepping up to financial plate, it likely isn't going to happen anytime soon. This is as close as it gets for now.
I think this thread does a great service, and folks should be thanking Robert for spending $4k so they don't have to.
As Dwayne said, it isn't the results the LE folks wanted to see. The pictures that show the differences in work and attention to detail (or lack thereof) speak for themselves.
As Denny said, we all benefit in the long run by these comparisons and debates - it forces the bar higher and we all benefit as consumers whether or not you take the comparison for what it is worth. BTW, I never doubted your numbers, but look how long (and how much $$ spent) to get it 'right'.
As David has said, perhaps the only way anyone will 'accept' any comparison would be the test he suggested, but barring anyone from stepping up to financial plate, it likely isn't going to happen anytime soon. This is as close as it gets for now.
01-06-2008, 01:21 PM
#222
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 455
Speed deamon: I am glad to see you are back in the game. Congrats on the good #'s. It's a shame you have been getting some crap, but you know that stuff happens. Your miss could be a couple of things, but I am sure you will sort it out. If you need my help or advice just ask.
I hope you get good track #'s too. I have been trying like hell to get my car sorted out. I really wanted to get some 10 sec time slips with my car, but I just kept having problems with broken driveline parts. I also developed a miss that was majorly hurting the cars performance. I tried to race it a couple of months ago, but the electrical gremlins kept me slow as hell. I was so frustrated, but there is good news.... Over the past year I have spent thousands of dollars on education (EFI tuning and basic electronics testing) instead of swapping parts till it worked. The results of that struggle are in, yesterday I fixed the car. The miss is gone and the ECU has finally been properly calibrated. The new dyno #'s are better than ever, and the cars fuel efficiency has dramatically improved. I have to get all the charts and video together and what not, but look for a new thread by me in the near future.
Agan, congrats and good luck.
I hope you get good track #'s too. I have been trying like hell to get my car sorted out. I really wanted to get some 10 sec time slips with my car, but I just kept having problems with broken driveline parts. I also developed a miss that was majorly hurting the cars performance. I tried to race it a couple of months ago, but the electrical gremlins kept me slow as hell. I was so frustrated, but there is good news.... Over the past year I have spent thousands of dollars on education (EFI tuning and basic electronics testing) instead of swapping parts till it worked. The results of that struggle are in, yesterday I fixed the car. The miss is gone and the ECU has finally been properly calibrated. The new dyno #'s are better than ever, and the cars fuel efficiency has dramatically improved. I have to get all the charts and video together and what not, but look for a new thread by me in the near future.
Agan, congrats and good luck.
01-06-2008, 04:02 PM
#223
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,193
I hope you get good track #'s too. I have been trying like hell to get my car sorted out. I really wanted to get some 10 sec time slips with my car, but I just kept having problems with broken driveline parts. I also developed a miss that was majorly hurting the cars performance. I tried to race it a couple of months ago, but the electrical gremlins kept me slow as hell. I was so frustrated, but there is good news.... Over the past year I have spent thousands of dollars on education (EFI tuning and basic electronics testing) instead of swapping parts till it worked. The results of that struggle are in, yesterday I fixed the car. The miss is gone and the ECU has finally been properly calibrated. The new dyno #'s are better than ever, and the cars fuel efficiency has dramatically improved. I have to get all the charts and video together and what not, but look for a new thread by me in the near future.
Agan, congrats and good luck.
Agan, congrats and good luck.
01-06-2008, 08:01 PM
#224
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,800
