AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
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From: St. Louis, MO
Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
THERE WAS NO PREVIOUS OWNERS OF THESE HEADS OR MACHINING DONE BY OTHER SHOPS, NOR OTHER CUSTOM MACHINING ON MY BLOCK OR INTAKE. I BOUGHT THESE HEADS BRAND NEW FROM AFR MACHINED TO 54CC AND AM TRYING TO BOLT THEM ONTO A NEW STOCK LT1 SHORT BLOCK AND A STOCK LT1 INTAKE. I was under the impression all the necessary angles would be altered such that they would be a direct BOLT-ON. The angle is now cut right for the intake mating surface, but it appears they had to remove TOO MUCH MATERIAL TO STRAIGHTEN IT and now my intake INTAKE BASE needs to be MACHINED SO THE INTAKE FLANGES WILL ACTUALLY MAKE CONTACT WITH THE HEADS. To compound the issue the intake now sits really low vs. the ports on the heads, I am going to buy some gasket paper soon and gasket match to see how much material actually be left on the roof of the intake once I gasket match.
Rob
Rob
Originally Posted by WS Sick
It almost sounds like they did up the heads with the intake the previous owner may have had, did you get any feedback from them?
I didnt have any problems with mine as well.
I didnt have any problems with mine as well.
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
Ok I just got off with AFR and they said since they did that "corrective" machine work I am going to have to use a Fel-Pro "Double" thick (.120" vs. nominal .060") Intake gasket... now I have to try to source one.
Rob
Rob
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
Originally Posted by RobBeck
Ok I just got off with AFR and they said since they did that "corrective" machine work I am going to have to use a Fel-Pro "Double" thick (.120" vs. nominal .060") Intake gasket... now I have to try to source one.
Last edited by arnie; Dec 9, 2004 at 05:48 PM.
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
Amen. Finally the response that I figured would come right away, I guess the BOLD print finally got my point across 
Glad to see you can see where I am coming from 
You are absolutely right on the money, and if I cant "easily" or "cheaply" find this "Thick" Intake gasket they will be getting a call back for sure, and new castings will be my demand. I really truly appreciate your support... I will be totally disgusted if they dont finish their end of the deal after all I have gone thru in time and money for this screw up. You wouldnt believe all of the things I bought and time I have spent along the way for this car trying to fix the problem of which I think lied within the head angle being wrong all along.....
I will for sure keep you all updated....
Rob
Glad to see you can see where I am coming from You are absolutely right on the money, and if I cant "easily" or "cheaply" find this "Thick" Intake gasket they will be getting a call back for sure, and new castings will be my demand. I really truly appreciate your support... I will be totally disgusted if they dont finish their end of the deal after all I have gone thru in time and money for this screw up. You wouldnt believe all of the things I bought and time I have spent along the way for this car trying to fix the problem of which I think lied within the head angle being wrong all along..... I will for sure keep you all updated....
Rob
Originally Posted by arnie
The screwup is their's. First the angle is wrong. Then angle corrected, but that left the surface with too much material removed, to allow the proper port lineup between heads and manifold. Worthless to you, but could have seen that comin'. The correct course of action, would have been to have heads replaced. Basically the heads are worthless, without the jerking around of the additional spacer. You can bet the ranch, they knew it was machined incorrectly originally, from day one, of your complaint. So much for a reputable merchant/mfr. Wish you well.
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
Originally Posted by RobBeck
So I sent my heads back to AFR and told them about the problem, asked them to correct it. They advised at first that an LT4 intake fit fine on it, even tho it is a LT1 Setup. So anyway I advised them that the angle is definitely ****ed.... and that they should fix it (it was pretty bad). They advised I should fix the intake to match, I again advised they need to fix the heads I spent ~$2k on. So anyway eventually they said well ok we will just skim the intake surface to their latest jigs.... and will advise if the angle was in fact not correct. To this day, I have not been able to get them to say Yes they were wrong or No they werent..... I honestly get a "I dont know" when I ask. Well, I recieved the heads back today... the angle is now PERFECT... BUT... the head intake surface is MUCH lower now and I am going to have to take at LEAST .060" off of the base of my intake to get the intake to mate to the heads before it bottoms out on the block. I also have noticed that the Head intake PORTS are REALLY high on the Intake Manifold now... I mean there is only going to be about .020" of Intake Manifold flange riding on the gasket then to the Head. If I were to port match my Intake Manifold Runner outlets I would have a paper thin roof on port. At this point I am not even sure the top of the intake wont literally drop INSIDE the gasket because it is sooo close, yet again giving a poor seal.
I am going to have to take pictures to explain this probably, it looks like AFR is getting another phone call but I am not so sure there is a fix for this one. My castings maybe fubard now. You can actually see the heads sitting about .050 down on the block head surface from the corner from the block deck surface.
It does appear to me that initially AFR had sent the heads with an intake flange angle configured for the stock casting... but me ordering the 54cc heads and them milling ONLY the combustion chamber side caused my problems....
Rob
I am going to have to take pictures to explain this probably, it looks like AFR is getting another phone call but I am not so sure there is a fix for this one. My castings maybe fubard now. You can actually see the heads sitting about .050 down on the block head surface from the corner from the block deck surface.
It does appear to me that initially AFR had sent the heads with an intake flange angle configured for the stock casting... but me ordering the 54cc heads and them milling ONLY the combustion chamber side caused my problems....
Rob
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
If I can find an appropriate gasket, I am going to try it. I will not double stack gaskets, if it comes to that the heads are most definitely going back. If I can find a standard thicker gasket that is fairly priced and will work with the LT1 setup I will pick some up and see if they "recover" the lost material when I am port matching. I was unlucky finding any those thick gaskets but if you know the part # that will work with LT1s please advise 
So much has been removed from the heads, I really think there is a good chance that a double thick gasket will make the intake sit like it is supposed to. However, there is still a part of me that thinks the Intake bolt holes are going to have the wrong angle as well.... I dont know man all of this compiled really makes me think I am entitled to a product that doesnt need all these work arounds; I bought them for top dollar with intent of bolting directly on and had troubles. This has caused many more dollars and time wasted on my behalf. I may end up having a long talk with AFR in the end. 
Rob
So much has been removed from the heads, I really think there is a good chance that a double thick gasket will make the intake sit like it is supposed to. However, there is still a part of me that thinks the Intake bolt holes are going to have the wrong angle as well.... I dont know man all of this compiled really makes me think I am entitled to a product that doesnt need all these work arounds; I bought them for top dollar with intent of bolting directly on and had troubles. This has caused many more dollars and time wasted on my behalf. I may end up having a long talk with AFR in the end. Rob
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
Originally Posted by RobBeck
THERE WAS NO PREVIOUS OWNERS OF THESE HEADS OR MACHINING DONE BY OTHER SHOPS, NOR OTHER CUSTOM MACHINING ON MY BLOCK OR INTAKE. I BOUGHT THESE HEADS BRAND NEW FROM AFR MACHINED TO 54CC AND AM TRYING TO BOLT THEM ONTO A NEW STOCK LT1 SHORT BLOCK AND A STOCK LT1 INTAKE. [RobBeck=
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
Originally Posted by RobBeck
If I can find an appropriate gasket, I am going to try it. I will not double stack gaskets, if it comes to that the heads are most definitely going back. If I can find a standard thicker gasket that is fairly priced and will work with the LT1 setup I will pick some up and see if they "recover" the lost material when I am port matching. I was unlucky finding any those thick gaskets but if you know the part # that will work with LT1s please advise So much has been removed from the heads, I really think there is a good chance that a double thick gasket will make the intake sit like it is supposed to. However, there is still a part of me that thinks the Intake bolt holes are going to have the wrong angle as well.... I dont know man all of this compiled really makes me think I am entitled to a product that doesnt need all these work arounds; I bought them for top dollar with intent of bolting directly on and had troubles. This has caused many more dollars and time wasted on my behalf. I may end up having a long talk with AFR in the end.
Rob
So much has been removed from the heads, I really think there is a good chance that a double thick gasket will make the intake sit like it is supposed to. However, there is still a part of me that thinks the Intake bolt holes are going to have the wrong angle as well.... I dont know man all of this compiled really makes me think I am entitled to a product that doesnt need all these work arounds; I bought them for top dollar with intent of bolting directly on and had troubles. This has caused many more dollars and time wasted on my behalf. I may end up having a long talk with AFR in the end. Rob
They make them but they are for an early SBC not a LT-1. you will have to punch your bplt holes in them.They are 1/8" thick.
Myself I would send them back to AFR and tell them to install them where the sun dont shine. I have had bad dealings with them also.
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
You shouldn't have to adapt you intake with doublethick gaskest for those expensive *** heads...
Like others have said, IMO AFR should replace these heads with the castings you request that will bolt on with no modifications.
Like others have said, IMO AFR should replace these heads with the castings you request that will bolt on with no modifications.
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
Guys, please keep these posts coming. I have a feeling I may have to use it as "ammunition" to get what some of us feel is right. I 100% agree that the castings were fubar'd from the get go, and now they are pulling wool over my eyes by recommending make shift fixes. I am NOT trying to get something for nothing, that is NOT what I stand for in the least bit. I really just want to get what I thought I was paying for.... quality. The one problem I have is that after I did all of these mods back in '00, and the car ran like ***... I spent over $1k on almost everything in a chaotic replacement/isolation phase... till the point where I got burnt out and parked the car and am just now getting back into it. The heads only have 7500 miles on them till this day, and another thing I noticed while pulling the valvesprings is the STEEL seat shims in the pockets were wore all the way thru too (which obviously can allow the springs to dig into aluminum heads).... fortunately more miles hadnt passed to allow this to take place. They indicated online that these may have just been a "bad batch" of hardened shims.... gee thanks! They did send me new shims with the castings that they sent back. It may have been a shocker for them hearing this old nightmare, I wonder how many others slipped thru the cracks like mine? The last thing I ever imagined was a problem like this.
Rob
Rob
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
AFR has been having big problems for about a year now with there in house work. On the Corvette forum they have actaualy tried to explain away the QA problems but they just keep coming. Here is the latest one
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=966090
Here is a more heated AFR post where Tony explains AFR's position
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=906715
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=966090
Here is a more heated AFR post where Tony explains AFR's position
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=906715
Last edited by ejfagala; Dec 10, 2004 at 02:11 PM.
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
Ok. I have not been able to find specific LT1 Thick gaskets, I do not intend on having to modify other SBC gaskets either.... regardless of how simple it maybe. The point is, these castings are worth very little the way they are... who wants to buy some heads that require double thick intake gaskets for a standard small block chevy with special holes drilled in them?
On top of that, the bolts are not at the right angle anymore... so I would need to "spot" face my intake... get double thick gaskets and then modify them.... and for what... $2k?
If they think that this an acceptable way to "bolt-on" some heads they should have no troubles selling them back to ANOTHER consumer..... AFR will be hearing from me shortly.
Rob
On top of that, the bolts are not at the right angle anymore... so I would need to "spot" face my intake... get double thick gaskets and then modify them.... and for what... $2k?
If they think that this an acceptable way to "bolt-on" some heads they should have no troubles selling them back to ANOTHER consumer..... AFR will be hearing from me shortly.
Rob
Originally Posted by 1racerdude
They make them but they are for an early SBC not a LT-1. you will have to punch your bplt holes in them.They are 1/8" thick.
Myself I would send them back to AFR and tell them to install them where the sun dont shine. I have had bad dealings with them also.
Myself I would send them back to AFR and tell them to install them where the sun dont shine. I have had bad dealings with them also.
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
Thanks for the good reading. It is nice to see that Tony seems to take a fair stance on these matters, being that my heads are not mechanically destroyed it shouldnt take a rocket scientist to figure out what has happened. I also am starting to see abit clearer now also why they had asked me to fix my heads/intake locally too, I am glad I stuck with sending the product back to AFR and AFR only to fix the issue.... which they didnt but they still have a chance.
Rob
Rob
Originally Posted by ejfagala
AFR has been having big problems for about a year now with there in house work. On the Corvette forum they have actaualy tried to explain away the QA problems but they just keep coming. Here is the latest one
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=966090
Here is a more heated AFR post where Tony explains AFR's position
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=906715
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=966090
Here is a more heated AFR post where Tony explains AFR's position
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=906715
Thread Starter
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Posts: 84
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
Did some more "investigating" tonight. Turns out the bolts are in fact angled with the original "uncorrected" flange surface (I figured but needed confirmation). This means that I would need to get my intake manifold bolt holes angle machined to match the heads, or only one side of the flanged bolt will make contact with the intake... as mentioned above is referred to as spot facing.
I am thinking that up to .100" of material may have been pulled from my castings to correct the angle (so much for a "skim")
This is more of a headache than I was looking for, I am curious to see where AFR stands on mending this issue.
Rob
I am thinking that up to .100" of material may have been pulled from my castings to correct the angle (so much for a "skim")
This is more of a headache than I was looking for, I am curious to see where AFR stands on mending this issue.
Rob
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Re: AFR190 54cc Heads Intake angle not right, what to do?
Update:
Spoke with Tony Mamo yesterday (really cool guy BTW), about this whole situation. He instructed me to measure the distance from the dowel pin alignment hole to the intake flange surface corner and to report my findings, ultimately this will truly tell how much material had been removed vs. a stock casting. My measurement came up to 6.060", whereas he says the stock UN-milled casting is 6.120" (he also calculated 6.070" for a new 54cc casting)... which seems to be correct by judging by some measurements of the block. Anyway, he said the problem is with the fact that I have 54cc chambers... which require 1* angle mill from the stock 76cc castings. That 1* apparently has caused the ~.060" material loss during the Intake correction procedure. I advised him my biggest problem is the port alignment with the stock LT1 Intake.... the ports are REALLY low and dont line up with the heads well (severe port matching required and even yet the Intake Manifold roof would be left paper thin/wouldnt seal). He said that I need to use the LT4 intake, that it has raised runners and will line up with my head runners unlike my stock LT1 Intake. So now I have to source an LT4 Intake, to try to confirm these new thoughts. Tony said that they recommend using the LT4 Intake with ALL of their heads (LT1 and LT4) because of such runner alignment issues. He also indicated that the bolts will ALWAYS be affected when doing an angle mill, requiring spot facing of the Intake manifold (or just ignore it)... I was under the impression that kind of stuff was all taken into consideration when I bought the heads. Anyway, the story as of now is the fact that I went 54cc and pretty much maxed out the castings is why I am having troubles with Intake Port alignment, etc. If the LT4 Intake Ports dont line up any better (the .100" raised runners I have read about will help ALOT), then its back to the drawing boards with AFR.
Rob
Spoke with Tony Mamo yesterday (really cool guy BTW), about this whole situation. He instructed me to measure the distance from the dowel pin alignment hole to the intake flange surface corner and to report my findings, ultimately this will truly tell how much material had been removed vs. a stock casting. My measurement came up to 6.060", whereas he says the stock UN-milled casting is 6.120" (he also calculated 6.070" for a new 54cc casting)... which seems to be correct by judging by some measurements of the block. Anyway, he said the problem is with the fact that I have 54cc chambers... which require 1* angle mill from the stock 76cc castings. That 1* apparently has caused the ~.060" material loss during the Intake correction procedure. I advised him my biggest problem is the port alignment with the stock LT1 Intake.... the ports are REALLY low and dont line up with the heads well (severe port matching required and even yet the Intake Manifold roof would be left paper thin/wouldnt seal). He said that I need to use the LT4 intake, that it has raised runners and will line up with my head runners unlike my stock LT1 Intake. So now I have to source an LT4 Intake, to try to confirm these new thoughts. Tony said that they recommend using the LT4 Intake with ALL of their heads (LT1 and LT4) because of such runner alignment issues. He also indicated that the bolts will ALWAYS be affected when doing an angle mill, requiring spot facing of the Intake manifold (or just ignore it)... I was under the impression that kind of stuff was all taken into consideration when I bought the heads. Anyway, the story as of now is the fact that I went 54cc and pretty much maxed out the castings is why I am having troubles with Intake Port alignment, etc. If the LT4 Intake Ports dont line up any better (the .100" raised runners I have read about will help ALOT), then its back to the drawing boards with AFR.
Rob
