4#'s vacuum after H/C swap
10-22-2009, 05:31 AM
#17
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
Posts: 70,722
Why not? Propane is a simple hydrocarbon, and is a component of the gasoline blend. Have you ruled out ethane, butane, pentane, octane, etc as well?
10-22-2009, 08:12 AM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kantuckee Yo'
Posts: 4,405
Thats what they use in motors when indoors. Fork lifts etc.
But seriously, I have heard of this before, but never done it. I assume if you wave the UNLIT torch around the intake and you here the revs increase. Bada bing, vacuum leak.
10-22-2009, 11:45 AM
#20
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Little Rock, AR
Posts: 27,711
10-23-2009, 11:23 AM
#21
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 65
sorry, didn't realize propane was safe to put into gasoline engines just because you can run propane injection on diesel engines but I've never seen any on gas engines. Guess I'll hafta get a torch and try that.
Think about it this way: You had the engine idling but was too noisey for you to put up with. Then you tightened the adjusting nuts (trying to quiet down the valve train) and now the engine won't idle and the vacuum is low.
If I got that right, what does that tell you?
The tightening you did is now holding one or more valves open when it/they should be closed. Because of that, the vacuum will automatically be lower.
Reset the lifter preload PROPERLY. Idle will return (as will noise) and vacuum will return.
As far as the noise, you may be just one of the many guys suffering from the same thing. That complaint is found on all of the six of so Forums I visit on a daily basis. Most of the guys complaining are running CompCams Pro Mag RRs, but a few are running Crane Golds. Seems noise just comes with them.
The quietest I've read about are Scorpions which, by the way, are the ones I'm running on my 388 and on my son's 96 LT1. I'M RUNNING 1.7s and he's running 1.7/1.65s. They're extremely quiet and not even more noticable than the stock ball and sled rockers.
If after you correctly re-adjust the preload and the noise still remains, check for an interference issue. Many times the underside of the rocker arm will contact the valve spring RETAINER that'll result in noise. If that's the case, a longer pushrod will create the clearance you need.
If all of that checks good but you still have the noise and you decide you can't live with it, all I can suggest is different rocker arms.
Hope this helps.
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!
If I got that right, what does that tell you?
The tightening you did is now holding one or more valves open when it/they should be closed. Because of that, the vacuum will automatically be lower.
Reset the lifter preload PROPERLY. Idle will return (as will noise) and vacuum will return.
As far as the noise, you may be just one of the many guys suffering from the same thing. That complaint is found on all of the six of so Forums I visit on a daily basis. Most of the guys complaining are running CompCams Pro Mag RRs, but a few are running Crane Golds. Seems noise just comes with them.
The quietest I've read about are Scorpions which, by the way, are the ones I'm running on my 388 and on my son's 96 LT1. I'M RUNNING 1.7s and he's running 1.7/1.65s. They're extremely quiet and not even more noticable than the stock ball and sled rockers.
If after you correctly re-adjust the preload and the noise still remains, check for an interference issue. Many times the underside of the rocker arm will contact the valve spring RETAINER that'll result in noise. If that's the case, a longer pushrod will create the clearance you need.
If all of that checks good but you still have the noise and you decide you can't live with it, all I can suggest is different rocker arms.
Hope this helps.
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!
next I tried adjusting them several times using all of the different engine-off methods.. usually it resulted w/ it firing up and stalling out unless you held your foot on the gas and it wouldn't rev. one time it would rev up fine but would still stall when you took your foot off the gas. one time it ran fine w/ the cut out open but when I closed it to hear things better it wouldn't stay running, so I ended up taking the whole exhaust system apart hunting for a clog that wasn't there. finally I gave up, bought new rockers and brought it to a shop.
Now it fires right up and idles, still low around 5-600 instead of 850. it sounds like it has a ridiculous sized cam in it but that could just be due to the low idle. the cabin lights flicker w/ the lope, the brakes are hard as a rock(duh) but it doesn't stall or anything when you stand on 'em. it revs up no problem now and is still running PIG rich.. no hissing noises @ all coming from the engine bay..
? hope this helps, I'm stumped thinking I'll have to park it for the year and tear it all apart just to double check everything.
Last edited by zzoomin; 10-23-2009 at 11:26 AM.
10-23-2009, 11:30 AM
#22
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 65
and the TB blade is cracked however much a stock one is, haven't touched it.
10-24-2009, 08:01 AM
#23
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lancaster, Texas
Posts: 549
I believe all your engine needs is proper tuning.
A scanner can tell you the IAC counts. Since you have already had the PCM re-programmed, the new programming is commanding the IAC to retract enough to achieved the new higher idle RPM.
If the IAC is working properly the IAC counts could be maxxed out. The IAC would have tried to comply with the command from the PCM but ran out of adjustment capability. So your next move would be to adjust the minimum airflow which'll allow more air in at idle and will also bring down the IAC count number. Once you get the IAC counts to a range of 20-30 counts AND the engine idle RPM is in the 850 RPM range the engine should run a lot BETTER.
Many guys have complained about Crane Gold's being noiser than they like. I don't know of anyway around that other than changing to different rocker arms. From personal experience, Scorpions are the quietest I've found.
I've followed several threads from guys who tried all sorts of mods trying to quiet down their valve train - new lifters, different length pushrods, different valve springs/retainers/locks, different preload settings - all without success. After all they've done, the culprits seem to be the rocker arms.
One guy posted that Crane issued a Tech Bulletin recommending more lifter preload to help quiet down valve train noise. I tried but couldn't find that bulletin.
What preload setting are you running?
Most cam companies recommend 1/2 turn from Zero Lash, but that recommendation isn't etched in stone. Guys vary from that recommended setting from as loose as 1/4 turn all the way to one-full turn. My son and I run 3/4 turn which gives our engines the best results.
A rock hard brake pedal makes me suspect a bad brake booster and/or absence of vacuum to the booster and/or vacuum reading too low. A disconnected or leaking booster vacuum hose could be the cause too.
As far as the engine running rich -
Does the engine run rich at all times, from cold start all the way to when it's fully warmed up?
Did you change the fuel pressure?
Are the 02 sensors working properly? How about the coolant temp sensor (the sensor that the PCM uses located screwed in the water pump)?
Was the PCM re-programmed for the size injectors you're running?
Any chance you have a leaking injector or fuel pressure regulator?
I feel all you need to do is tweak your setup settings until you find the "sweet spot".
Hope some of this helps.
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!
A scanner can tell you the IAC counts. Since you have already had the PCM re-programmed, the new programming is commanding the IAC to retract enough to achieved the new higher idle RPM.
If the IAC is working properly the IAC counts could be maxxed out. The IAC would have tried to comply with the command from the PCM but ran out of adjustment capability. So your next move would be to adjust the minimum airflow which'll allow more air in at idle and will also bring down the IAC count number. Once you get the IAC counts to a range of 20-30 counts AND the engine idle RPM is in the 850 RPM range the engine should run a lot BETTER.
Many guys have complained about Crane Gold's being noiser than they like. I don't know of anyway around that other than changing to different rocker arms. From personal experience, Scorpions are the quietest I've found.
I've followed several threads from guys who tried all sorts of mods trying to quiet down their valve train - new lifters, different length pushrods, different valve springs/retainers/locks, different preload settings - all without success. After all they've done, the culprits seem to be the rocker arms.
One guy posted that Crane issued a Tech Bulletin recommending more lifter preload to help quiet down valve train noise. I tried but couldn't find that bulletin.
What preload setting are you running?
Most cam companies recommend 1/2 turn from Zero Lash, but that recommendation isn't etched in stone. Guys vary from that recommended setting from as loose as 1/4 turn all the way to one-full turn. My son and I run 3/4 turn which gives our engines the best results.
A rock hard brake pedal makes me suspect a bad brake booster and/or absence of vacuum to the booster and/or vacuum reading too low. A disconnected or leaking booster vacuum hose could be the cause too.
As far as the engine running rich -
Does the engine run rich at all times, from cold start all the way to when it's fully warmed up?
Did you change the fuel pressure?
Are the 02 sensors working properly? How about the coolant temp sensor (the sensor that the PCM uses located screwed in the water pump)?
Was the PCM re-programmed for the size injectors you're running?
Any chance you have a leaking injector or fuel pressure regulator?
I feel all you need to do is tweak your setup settings until you find the "sweet spot".
Hope some of this helps.
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!
10-24-2009, 09:03 AM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Kernersville, NC
Posts: 2,062
I don't know what the lift on your cam is and I don't have ported heads. But I can tell you that my CC503 idles with zero problems on the stock tune. Your duration on that cam is not far off mine.
I'm still suspect of a vacuum leak or bad rocker adjustment....especially with the poor vacuum numbers.
Pull the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator and attach a mityvac to it. Tell us the vacuum reading at idle.
My CC503 reading in the last half of this vid....
http://www.ace1252.com/images/CC503_...ant_tester.WMV
I don't know...I guess the low numbers could be a result of the low idle....but I'm not sure what vacuum numbers my engine would pull at 650 rpms(8 still seems too low for 650 rpms). My engine pulls 16 in-hg at 800 rpms.
I'm still suspect of a vacuum leak or bad rocker adjustment....especially with the poor vacuum numbers.
Pull the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator and attach a mityvac to it. Tell us the vacuum reading at idle.
My CC503 reading in the last half of this vid....
http://www.ace1252.com/images/CC503_...ant_tester.WMV
I don't know...I guess the low numbers could be a result of the low idle....but I'm not sure what vacuum numbers my engine would pull at 650 rpms(8 still seems too low for 650 rpms). My engine pulls 16 in-hg at 800 rpms.
Last edited by ACE1252; 10-24-2009 at 09:16 AM.
10-30-2009, 10:05 AM
#26
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 65
one thing I forgot to mention before, I was also throwing a p0336 CPS circut range malfunction code before(after h/c swap) and mentioned it to Ion when he tuned it. he said its really only for emmissions purposes and tuned it out of the PCM.
I haven't had a chance to take a propane torch to it yet, hell this is the 1st chance I've had to check this thread since my last post.
o & thanks for the replys btw =)
so how do I adjust the min airflow? it may take awhile for my friend to have the spare time to come scan it again for me but I'm in no rush since I've written off driving it this year.
I don't really care about, or have even noticed any valvetrain noise yet, I'm sure theres some but I haven't heard anything over the exhaust yet.
I'll have to check but I'm pretty sure the mechanic set the preload @ 3/4 turn, I know I tried 1/2 & 3/4 when I tried.
I seriously doubt my brake booster **** the bed from lack of use, everything worked fine before things got torn apart. the hose is def attatched at both ends w/ no leaks and yes the vacuum is low.
Actually, idk about the mechanic, but I haven't even ran it long enough for it to fully warm up, but its burning eyes rich. I didn't change the fuel pressure but Ion might of idk, I'll have to ask him.
I'm still on the stock injectors and no codes have been thrown for any of the sensors besides for the CPS.
I'll check for leaks but how would you know if an injector was leaky?
lol yeah I had people telling me it wouldn't even run on the stock tune, my lift is in the .57x/.54x range. I've been wondering myself if the mechanic set the preload right, thing is how the [EDIT] do I check when I'm not even sure if I'm doing it right either. and since I just dropped $300 having it done I don't want to pay another shop to do it all over again just to check cause that might not even be the problem.
like I was sayin tho, this vacuum stuff is still greek to me. I'll hafta see if I can find a mityvac, can't say I've ever seen one in a hardware store around here... but once I do I pull the vacuum hose off the FPR WHILE the engine is running and check the vacuum from that hose?(just double checking) should I manually rev the engine up to ~850 while I do this? and ~16 in-hg is around what I should have?
I haven't had a chance to take a propane torch to it yet, hell this is the 1st chance I've had to check this thread since my last post.
o & thanks for the replys btw =)
I believe all your engine needs is proper tuning.
A scanner can tell you the IAC counts. Since you have already had the PCM re-programmed, the new programming is commanding the IAC to retract enough to achieved the new higher idle RPM.
If the IAC is working properly the IAC counts could be maxxed out. The IAC would have tried to comply with the command from the PCM but ran out of adjustment capability. So your next move would be to adjust the minimum airflow which'll allow more air in at idle and will also bring down the IAC count number. Once you get the IAC counts to a range of 20-30 counts AND the engine idle RPM is in the 850 RPM range the engine should run a lot BETTER.
Many guys have complained about Crane Gold's being noiser than they like. I don't know of anyway around that other than changing to different rocker arms. From personal experience, Scorpions are the quietest I've found.
I've followed several threads from guys who tried all sorts of mods trying to quiet down their valve train - new lifters, different length pushrods, different valve springs/retainers/locks, different preload settings - all without success. After all they've done, the culprits seem to be the rocker arms.
One guy posted that Crane issued a Tech Bulletin recommending more lifter preload to help quiet down valve train noise. I tried but couldn't find that bulletin.
What preload setting are you running?
Most cam companies recommend 1/2 turn from Zero Lash, but that recommendation isn't etched in stone. Guys vary from that recommended setting from as loose as 1/4 turn all the way to one-full turn. My son and I run 3/4 turn which gives our engines the best results.
A rock hard brake pedal makes me suspect a bad brake booster and/or absence of vacuum to the booster and/or vacuum reading too low. A disconnected or leaking booster vacuum hose could be the cause too.
As far as the engine running rich -
Does the engine run rich at all times, from cold start all the way to when it's fully warmed up?
Did you change the fuel pressure?
Are the 02 sensors working properly? How about the coolant temp sensor (the sensor that the PCM uses located screwed in the water pump)?
Was the PCM re-programmed for the size injectors you're running?
Any chance you have a leaking injector or fuel pressure regulator?
I feel all you need to do is tweak your setup settings until you find the "sweet spot".
Hope some of this helps.
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!
A scanner can tell you the IAC counts. Since you have already had the PCM re-programmed, the new programming is commanding the IAC to retract enough to achieved the new higher idle RPM.
If the IAC is working properly the IAC counts could be maxxed out. The IAC would have tried to comply with the command from the PCM but ran out of adjustment capability. So your next move would be to adjust the minimum airflow which'll allow more air in at idle and will also bring down the IAC count number. Once you get the IAC counts to a range of 20-30 counts AND the engine idle RPM is in the 850 RPM range the engine should run a lot BETTER.
Many guys have complained about Crane Gold's being noiser than they like. I don't know of anyway around that other than changing to different rocker arms. From personal experience, Scorpions are the quietest I've found.
I've followed several threads from guys who tried all sorts of mods trying to quiet down their valve train - new lifters, different length pushrods, different valve springs/retainers/locks, different preload settings - all without success. After all they've done, the culprits seem to be the rocker arms.
One guy posted that Crane issued a Tech Bulletin recommending more lifter preload to help quiet down valve train noise. I tried but couldn't find that bulletin.
What preload setting are you running?
Most cam companies recommend 1/2 turn from Zero Lash, but that recommendation isn't etched in stone. Guys vary from that recommended setting from as loose as 1/4 turn all the way to one-full turn. My son and I run 3/4 turn which gives our engines the best results.
A rock hard brake pedal makes me suspect a bad brake booster and/or absence of vacuum to the booster and/or vacuum reading too low. A disconnected or leaking booster vacuum hose could be the cause too.
As far as the engine running rich -
Does the engine run rich at all times, from cold start all the way to when it's fully warmed up?
Did you change the fuel pressure?
Are the 02 sensors working properly? How about the coolant temp sensor (the sensor that the PCM uses located screwed in the water pump)?
Was the PCM re-programmed for the size injectors you're running?
Any chance you have a leaking injector or fuel pressure regulator?
I feel all you need to do is tweak your setup settings until you find the "sweet spot".
Hope some of this helps.
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!
I don't really care about, or have even noticed any valvetrain noise yet, I'm sure theres some but I haven't heard anything over the exhaust yet.
I'll have to check but I'm pretty sure the mechanic set the preload @ 3/4 turn, I know I tried 1/2 & 3/4 when I tried.
I seriously doubt my brake booster **** the bed from lack of use, everything worked fine before things got torn apart. the hose is def attatched at both ends w/ no leaks and yes the vacuum is low.
Actually, idk about the mechanic, but I haven't even ran it long enough for it to fully warm up, but its burning eyes rich. I didn't change the fuel pressure but Ion might of idk, I'll have to ask him.
I'm still on the stock injectors and no codes have been thrown for any of the sensors besides for the CPS.
I'll check for leaks but how would you know if an injector was leaky?
I don't know what the lift on your cam is and I don't have ported heads. But I can tell you that my CC503 idles with zero problems on the stock tune. Your duration on that cam is not far off mine.
I'm still suspect of a vacuum leak or bad rocker adjustment....especially with the poor vacuum numbers.
Pull the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator and attach a mityvac to it. Tell us the vacuum reading at idle.
My CC503 reading in the last half of this vid....
http://www.ace1252.com/images/CC503_...ant_tester.WMV
I don't know...I guess the low numbers could be a result of the low idle....but I'm not sure what vacuum numbers my engine would pull at 650 rpms(8 still seems too low for 650 rpms). My engine pulls 16 in-hg at 800 rpms.
I'm still suspect of a vacuum leak or bad rocker adjustment....especially with the poor vacuum numbers.
Pull the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator and attach a mityvac to it. Tell us the vacuum reading at idle.
My CC503 reading in the last half of this vid....
http://www.ace1252.com/images/CC503_...ant_tester.WMV
I don't know...I guess the low numbers could be a result of the low idle....but I'm not sure what vacuum numbers my engine would pull at 650 rpms(8 still seems too low for 650 rpms). My engine pulls 16 in-hg at 800 rpms.
like I was sayin tho, this vacuum stuff is still greek to me. I'll hafta see if I can find a mityvac, can't say I've ever seen one in a hardware store around here... but once I do I pull the vacuum hose off the FPR WHILE the engine is running and check the vacuum from that hose?(just double checking) should I manually rev the engine up to ~850 while I do this? and ~16 in-hg is around what I should have?
Last edited by Injuneer; 10-31-2009 at 06:40 AM. Reason: Please do not test the language filter.
10-30-2009, 11:15 AM
#27
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 65
OK so I fired it up 2 let it warm up as I ate my lunch. it usually takes a lil while for the temp gauge to move but it didn't take as long as it used to AND it didn't stop climbing so I shut it down when it hit 200(highest I've ever seen it). so now I'm wondering if I fudged up somin else when doing the swap or if its simply an air bubble in the system.. or if the valves are adjusted improperly, which my friend said could make it heat up but I'm not sure if I buy that or not. what do you guys think/know?
the SES also came on this time when I revved it to 2k so I'll hafta wait and see what it says now. also it was surging a bit, like I give it some throttle which should rev it up to 1500 but it only revs to 1400 and if I hold it there it will all of a sudden surge up a hundred or two rpm..
thanks again!
the SES also came on this time when I revved it to 2k so I'll hafta wait and see what it says now. also it was surging a bit, like I give it some throttle which should rev it up to 1500 but it only revs to 1400 and if I hold it there it will all of a sudden surge up a hundred or two rpm..
thanks again!
10-30-2009, 08:06 PM
#28
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lancaster, Texas
Posts: 549
200F isn't a problem and, in fact, the stock programming of the PCM doesn't even command the fans to turn on at that low a temperature. Over 240 is time to worry.
Adjusting the minimum airflow only involves turning the minimum airflow screw on the throttle body. Depending on the throttle body you're running, it takes either an allen head or a torx head tool to turn the screw.
You'll find the screw recessed in a little tunnel-like opening just forward of the throttle cable. If it has never been adjusted before, you may find a plug that needs to be removed to access the screw.
If a lifter(s) is set too tightly that can cause a valve to be held open when it should be closed. That will have a negative effect on idle quality as well as power production and cause other bad things. There's no way for me to know if your mechanic (or you for that matter) adjusted them correctly.
I have a file I prepared giving a step-by-step procedure on adjusting the lifter preload. It's pretty long, but more detailed than you usually find in catalogs, etc. I may have posted it here before (can't remember since I've posted it on so many Forums) and if you want it, let me know and I'll send it to you. It explains not only how to do it but why as well.
Hope this helps.
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!
Adjusting the minimum airflow only involves turning the minimum airflow screw on the throttle body. Depending on the throttle body you're running, it takes either an allen head or a torx head tool to turn the screw.
You'll find the screw recessed in a little tunnel-like opening just forward of the throttle cable. If it has never been adjusted before, you may find a plug that needs to be removed to access the screw.
If a lifter(s) is set too tightly that can cause a valve to be held open when it should be closed. That will have a negative effect on idle quality as well as power production and cause other bad things. There's no way for me to know if your mechanic (or you for that matter) adjusted them correctly.
I have a file I prepared giving a step-by-step procedure on adjusting the lifter preload. It's pretty long, but more detailed than you usually find in catalogs, etc. I may have posted it here before (can't remember since I've posted it on so many Forums) and if you want it, let me know and I'll send it to you. It explains not only how to do it but why as well.
Hope this helps.
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!
10-31-2009, 05:37 PM
#29
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 65
200F isn't a problem and, in fact, the stock programming of the PCM doesn't even command the fans to turn on at that low a temperature. Over 240 is time to worry.
Adjusting the minimum airflow only involves turning the minimum airflow screw on the throttle body. Depending on the throttle body you're running, it takes either an allen head or a torx head tool to turn the screw.
You'll find the screw recessed in a little tunnel-like opening just forward of the throttle cable. If it has never been adjusted before, you may find a plug that needs to be removed to access the screw.
If a lifter(s) is set too tightly that can cause a valve to be held open when it should be closed. That will have a negative effect on idle quality as well as power production and cause other bad things. There's no way for me to know if your mechanic (or you for that matter) adjusted them correctly.
I have a file I prepared giving a step-by-step procedure on adjusting the lifter preload. It's pretty long, but more detailed than you usually find in catalogs, etc. I may have posted it here before (can't remember since I've posted it on so many Forums) and if you want it, let me know and I'll send it to you. It explains not only how to do it but why as well.
Hope this helps.
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!
Adjusting the minimum airflow only involves turning the minimum airflow screw on the throttle body. Depending on the throttle body you're running, it takes either an allen head or a torx head tool to turn the screw.
You'll find the screw recessed in a little tunnel-like opening just forward of the throttle cable. If it has never been adjusted before, you may find a plug that needs to be removed to access the screw.
If a lifter(s) is set too tightly that can cause a valve to be held open when it should be closed. That will have a negative effect on idle quality as well as power production and cause other bad things. There's no way for me to know if your mechanic (or you for that matter) adjusted them correctly.
I have a file I prepared giving a step-by-step procedure on adjusting the lifter preload. It's pretty long, but more detailed than you usually find in catalogs, etc. I may have posted it here before (can't remember since I've posted it on so many Forums) and if you want it, let me know and I'll send it to you. It explains not only how to do it but why as well.
Hope this helps.
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!
I've read and printed out those step by step directions you've posted(thanks btw) and have tried every method of valve adjustment. I still haven't ruled out the valve's as my problem but I think its pretty obvious somin else is going on..
I'm gonna try waving some propane around the intake and try messing w/ that airflow adjuster and try bleeding the cooling system... and if that doesn't solve it its time to park it and keep my money in my pocket for the winter and try figuring it out next year. thanks again for the replies!