FIPK vs. Direct flo airlid
05-01-2003, 12:51 PM
#31
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Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Asheboro, NC
Posts: 68
Originally posted by V6toZ28
Can you explain why air moving across a hot radiator will not draw heat from it? After all that's why the radiator works, cooler air going across and through the radiator draws off the heat of the engine coolant ...why would it suddenly no longer do that???
Can you explain why air moving across a hot radiator will not draw heat from it? After all that's why the radiator works, cooler air going across and through the radiator draws off the heat of the engine coolant ...why would it suddenly no longer do that???
On a side note a friend with a 02 WS6 w/ a direct flo lid, FTRA, dynomouth exhuast, and nittos ran a 12.48 @ 111.3 w/ a 1.88 60'
Also this guy ran another 02 WS6 with the FIPK and GMMG exhaust, it was even until about 60 when the car with the lid put about 2-3 cars on the FIPK car. This was repeated about 5 times on the highway. Both are M6s all runs from a 15-20mph roll.
So from what I've seen the Lid/FTRA combo is better for a similar yet still cheaper price.
05-01-2003, 04:06 PM
#32
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sac, CA
Posts: 674
Originally posted by Dave@808
Were the runs back to back? Let's compare apples to apples......
Were the runs back to back? Let's compare apples to apples......
Besides you've spent enough time at the track that it's near impossible to dupilcate everything from one run to the next much less validate the impact of a single change ... if you could, bracket racing wourl be a piece of cake ...
Continuous runs over time speak for themselves ... May through July ... One run better than 13.6. August and September, no runs worse than 13.49
05-01-2003, 04:12 PM
#33
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii
Posts: 33
Originally posted by Mister Will
Well, Dave@808 I'd like to respond to your post
"Claiming the the FIPK makes more HP"? If the Dyno doesn't show that the FIPK makes more HP what does?? FIPK installs have repetitvely shown power improvements of 20 rwhp and more (check my sig). The consensus seat of the pants meter also says the FIPK makes more power. Do you honestly expect people to do before and after dynos just to "prove" the FIPK makes more power. People will post the results of their FIPK installs just as they did with the lids when they were first introduced.
In regards to track time improvements. Bottom line track times prove how quick a car goes down the track. There are so many variations involved from driver to car-setup to track conditions to humidity and temperature. It would be impossible to convince a skeptical mind that the improvement was due to the FIPK alone. If you aren't going to believe dyno figures your not going to believe track times.
Okay, it doesn't happen everyday, point taken. Yet you do admitt that it's possible? I don't believe there will be a problem with the FTRA or FRA in wet pavement due to rain. I do think it is possible to get water in the intake or on the filter if you drive through standing water. I chose not to do it. But FTRA or FRA allows more clean air to the air box, allowing the engine to produce more power. If you want to do the mods, then do them. Its your car.
Lets take a look at the comparison that being made here. The Lid/FTRA vs. FIPK. First the FIPK is clearly a superior design to a lid. It has a larger filter area. The larger filter is completely exposed. It also has a more direct path to the MAF Sensor.
Second, to compare the Lid/FTRA to the FIPK is really comparing two (yes 2) mods to one. The FTRA is nothing more than a scoop and the FRA is no more than cutting away restrictive shrouding. All they do is supply more clean air to the air box. The FTRA and FRA can be applied to both a Lid and the FIPK. So the real comparison should be of the LID vs the FIPK alone or under simular conditions.
I believe it has already been shown that the FIPK provides better results.
But that just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Question: Why are all the lid guys getting so defensive?
Well, Dave@808 I'd like to respond to your post
"Claiming the the FIPK makes more HP"? If the Dyno doesn't show that the FIPK makes more HP what does?? FIPK installs have repetitvely shown power improvements of 20 rwhp and more (check my sig). The consensus seat of the pants meter also says the FIPK makes more power. Do you honestly expect people to do before and after dynos just to "prove" the FIPK makes more power. People will post the results of their FIPK installs just as they did with the lids when they were first introduced.
In regards to track time improvements. Bottom line track times prove how quick a car goes down the track. There are so many variations involved from driver to car-setup to track conditions to humidity and temperature. It would be impossible to convince a skeptical mind that the improvement was due to the FIPK alone. If you aren't going to believe dyno figures your not going to believe track times.
Okay, it doesn't happen everyday, point taken. Yet you do admitt that it's possible? I don't believe there will be a problem with the FTRA or FRA in wet pavement due to rain. I do think it is possible to get water in the intake or on the filter if you drive through standing water. I chose not to do it. But FTRA or FRA allows more clean air to the air box, allowing the engine to produce more power. If you want to do the mods, then do them. Its your car.
Lets take a look at the comparison that being made here. The Lid/FTRA vs. FIPK. First the FIPK is clearly a superior design to a lid. It has a larger filter area. The larger filter is completely exposed. It also has a more direct path to the MAF Sensor.
Second, to compare the Lid/FTRA to the FIPK is really comparing two (yes 2) mods to one. The FTRA is nothing more than a scoop and the FRA is no more than cutting away restrictive shrouding. All they do is supply more clean air to the air box. The FTRA and FRA can be applied to both a Lid and the FIPK. So the real comparison should be of the LID vs the FIPK alone or under simular conditions.
I believe it has already been shown that the FIPK provides better results.
But that just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Question: Why are all the lid guys getting so defensive?
Why would anyone back to back dyno a lid vs an FIPK? Well in order to make even a remotely accurate statement regarding which one makes more HP you would have to. Temps, humidity, etc...all play a role in the #'s right? BTW, show me those repetitive 20+hp dyno's with the FIPK I must've missed them.
Why do track times matter when comparing a lid/ftra vs a FIPK? The lid/FTRA combo work in real world conditions, and will not perform to their potential on a stationary dyno (of course you know). So how can you accurately gauge the HP increase with the lid/FTRA combo....? You can't (on a dyno), so you need to compare it at the track. Sure there is a great deal of variation, but that is going to be the only fair comparison of the 2 at their potential. Back to back testing once again. Comparisons in in trap speed, 330', 1/8th mile, etc should show some type of variation if one makes more power than the other right? You can also rule out a portion of the variations by assessing the 60'.
Finally, FIPK a better design? Well that's yet to be proven. More filtration area, yes. Better design not neccessarily.....it also takes in more warm air due to it's open design. So more surface area for filtration is great assuming that the LS1 is choking on the standard size filter. How much better is it to take in larger quantities of air at higher temps? Hmmm
Let's not take this internet **** match over the lid/FTRA vs FIPK debate any further than it has to. I am stating my opinion, and once again, did not say anything bad about the FIPK in my initial statement. If you have fair evidence to back up your claims to increased HP using the FIPK I'd love to see it.....
05-01-2003, 04:27 PM
#34
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sac, CA
Posts: 674
Originally posted by JonCR96Z
So from what I've seen the Lid/FTRA combo is better for a similar yet still cheaper price.
So from what I've seen the Lid/FTRA combo is better for a similar yet still cheaper price.
Pace sells the FIPK for $290
05-01-2003, 08:44 PM
#35
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 190
If taking in hot air is the only concern, the Volant system should take care of that. Its just a fipk with a box that doesnt allow engine air to come in.
Here is the picture again
Personally, I would believe that the fipk will beat out the lid. The fact is it DOES add more HP. Is it enough HP to make it worth the price increase? Well, that is just an opinion question isnt it?
I read this same argument a few days ago, only it was about if the SS was worth it, or just to get a Z28. The FIPK people are all happy with what they purchased, while a lot of lid owners would like to have FIPKs.
Same with the SS, a lot of Z owners say it isnt worth it, but no SS owner would look back to a Z.
Anyway, theres my two cents.
Here is the picture again
Personally, I would believe that the fipk will beat out the lid. The fact is it DOES add more HP. Is it enough HP to make it worth the price increase? Well, that is just an opinion question isnt it?
I read this same argument a few days ago, only it was about if the SS was worth it, or just to get a Z28. The FIPK people are all happy with what they purchased, while a lot of lid owners would like to have FIPKs.
Same with the SS, a lot of Z owners say it isnt worth it, but no SS owner would look back to a Z.
Anyway, theres my two cents.
05-01-2003, 11:50 PM
#36
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 88
True the FIPK draws in more air but your engine takes the effort to suck it in. Its almost like running your car with nothing in front of the throttle body.
With the lid, you create the straw effect and the air intake has more velocity. The lid creates a "streamline" effect. Thats why the older muscle cars use to put stacks on their carbs. With more velocity you get more oxygen.
We replaced the FIPK on a SS that dynoed 303 at the rear. With the !FRA and whisper lid we got it back to 330. Streamline is the key.
With the lid, you create the straw effect and the air intake has more velocity. The lid creates a "streamline" effect. Thats why the older muscle cars use to put stacks on their carbs. With more velocity you get more oxygen.
We replaced the FIPK on a SS that dynoed 303 at the rear. With the !FRA and whisper lid we got it back to 330. Streamline is the key.
05-02-2003, 01:02 AM
#37
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 338
Originally posted by Dave@808
Will, seems like you're the one getting defensive. I stated I would not trade my lid/FTRA combo for the FIPK. I never said anything bad about the FIPK nor did I get defensive...till now. Let's clear the air.
Will, seems like you're the one getting defensive. I stated I would not trade my lid/FTRA combo for the FIPK. I never said anything bad about the FIPK nor did I get defensive...till now. Let's clear the air.
Originally posted by Dave@808
Why would anyone back to back dyno a lid vs an FIPK? Well in order to make even a remotely accurate statement regarding which one makes more HP you would have to. Temps, humidity, etc...all play a role in the #'s right? BTW, show me those repetitive 20+hp dyno's with the FIPK I must've missed them.
Why would anyone back to back dyno a lid vs an FIPK? Well in order to make even a remotely accurate statement regarding which one makes more HP you would have to. Temps, humidity, etc...all play a role in the #'s right? BTW, show me those repetitive 20+hp dyno's with the FIPK I must've missed them.
Originally posted by Dave@808
Why do track times matter when comparing a lid/ftra vs a FIPK? The lid/FTRA combo work in real world conditions, and will not perform to their potential on a stationary dyno (of course you know). So how can you accurately gauge the HP increase with the lid/FTRA combo....? You can't (on a dyno), so you need to compare it at the track. Sure there is a great deal of variation, but that is going to be the only fair comparison of the 2 at their potential. Back to back testing once again. Comparisons in in trap speed, 330', 1/8th mile, etc should show some type of variation if one makes more power than the other right? You can also rule out a portion of the variations by assessing the 60'.
Why do track times matter when comparing a lid/ftra vs a FIPK? The lid/FTRA combo work in real world conditions, and will not perform to their potential on a stationary dyno (of course you know). So how can you accurately gauge the HP increase with the lid/FTRA combo....? You can't (on a dyno), so you need to compare it at the track. Sure there is a great deal of variation, but that is going to be the only fair comparison of the 2 at their potential. Back to back testing once again. Comparisons in in trap speed, 330', 1/8th mile, etc should show some type of variation if one makes more power than the other right? You can also rule out a portion of the variations by assessing the 60'.
Originally posted by Dave@808
Finally, FIPK a better design? Well that's yet to be proven. More filtration area, yes. Better design not neccessarily.....it also takes in more warm air due to it's open design. So more surface area for filtration is great assuming that the LS1 is choking on the standard size filter. How much better is it to take in larger quantities of air at higher temps? Hmmm
Finally, FIPK a better design? Well that's yet to be proven. More filtration area, yes. Better design not neccessarily.....it also takes in more warm air due to it's open design. So more surface area for filtration is great assuming that the LS1 is choking on the standard size filter. How much better is it to take in larger quantities of air at higher temps? Hmmm
Originally posted by Dave@808
Let's not take this internet **** match over the lid/FTRA vs FIPK debate any further than it has to. I am stating my opinion, and once again, did not say anything bad about the FIPK in my initial statement. If you have fair evidence to back up your claims to increased HP using the FIPK I'd love to see it.....
Let's not take this internet **** match over the lid/FTRA vs FIPK debate any further than it has to. I am stating my opinion, and once again, did not say anything bad about the FIPK in my initial statement. If you have fair evidence to back up your claims to increased HP using the FIPK I'd love to see it.....
BTW question of "Why are all the lid guys getting so defensive" was not directed at you Dave. But it probably appeared as such. It was actually meant to the thread in general. What was I getting at? I am getting the sense that allot of people have invested in a lid and some type of CAI device. They've seen some good gains as a result. Now comes this off the shelf assembly that equals or beats those gains. After the time and money invested, I wouldn't be to happy either and I'd want to see more proof! But we can only post with the information we've got and thats the way its always been.
I've had my say. Peace
05-02-2003, 01:08 AM
#38
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 338
Originally posted by BlazeOne
True the FIPK draws in more air but your engine takes the effort to suck it in. Its almost like running your car with nothing in front of the throttle body.
With the lid, you create the straw effect and the air intake has more velocity. The lid creates a "streamline" effect. Thats why the older muscle cars use to put stacks on their carbs. With more velocity you get more oxygen.
We replaced the FIPK on a SS that dynoed 303 at the rear. With the !FRA and whisper lid we got it back to 330. Streamline is the key.
True the FIPK draws in more air but your engine takes the effort to suck it in. Its almost like running your car with nothing in front of the throttle body.
With the lid, you create the straw effect and the air intake has more velocity. The lid creates a "streamline" effect. Thats why the older muscle cars use to put stacks on their carbs. With more velocity you get more oxygen.
We replaced the FIPK on a SS that dynoed 303 at the rear. With the !FRA and whisper lid we got it back to 330. Streamline is the key.
Now I'm feeling skeptical
05-02-2003, 04:46 AM
#39
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii
Posts: 33
MisterWill, you seem to have all the answers. Despite the fact that you have no evidence to back it up.
I just did a search on the forum and noticed how much time you've invested to prove the FIPK set up to any & all doubters....I realize now that I don't have enough time to argue with a forum goer with as much time as you.
To all others claiming the FIPK makes more HP than a lid, does anyone have hard evidence to support the claim? I know when the FIPK first came out several members posted....can't find the threads now though.....
I just did a search on the forum and noticed how much time you've invested to prove the FIPK set up to any & all doubters....I realize now that I don't have enough time to argue with a forum goer with as much time as you.
To all others claiming the FIPK makes more HP than a lid, does anyone have hard evidence to support the claim? I know when the FIPK first came out several members posted....can't find the threads now though.....
Last edited by Dave@808; 05-02-2003 at 04:58 AM.
05-02-2003, 07:04 AM
#40
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicago
Posts: 966
Originally posted by Dave@808
To all others claiming the FIPK makes more HP than a lid, does anyone have hard evidence to support the claim? I know when the FIPK first came out several members posted....can't find the threads now though.....
To all others claiming the FIPK makes more HP than a lid, does anyone have hard evidence to support the claim? I know when the FIPK first came out several members posted....can't find the threads now though.....
05-02-2003, 12:02 PM
#41
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii
Posts: 33
Originally posted by Black01_Z
Yes have you been reading this thread. People posted that they gained 20+ rwhp from the FIPK. I bought mine and love it. Really there is no point to a lid. If your gonna mod something then mod it right. If you want more air getting to your engine then dont increase it just a little, but as much as you possibly can. How much hp do you lid/Filter guys gain. About 7-10 rwhp. Enough said. By the way I also agree with someone earlier why are we comparing lid/FTRA,FRA vs Fipk, if you can do FTRA and FRA on an FIPK as well.
Yes have you been reading this thread. People posted that they gained 20+ rwhp from the FIPK. I bought mine and love it. Really there is no point to a lid. If your gonna mod something then mod it right. If you want more air getting to your engine then dont increase it just a little, but as much as you possibly can. How much hp do you lid/Filter guys gain. About 7-10 rwhp. Enough said. By the way I also agree with someone earlier why are we comparing lid/FTRA,FRA vs Fipk, if you can do FTRA and FRA on an FIPK as well.
Originally posted by Black01_Z
And see even bigger gains. And if you remove the windshied washer bottle plus the shroud underneath it =
And see even bigger gains. And if you remove the windshied washer bottle plus the shroud underneath it =
Last edited by Dave@808; 05-02-2003 at 12:13 PM.
05-02-2003, 12:48 PM
#42
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SE Pennsylvainia
Posts: 75
Originally posted by Dave@808
So where is this proof that I missed reading? I didn't see one back to back dyno sheet posted. All I did see, was a bunch of guys "claiming" 20+hp gains.
So where is this proof that I missed reading? I didn't see one back to back dyno sheet posted. All I did see, was a bunch of guys "claiming" 20+hp gains.
http://www.mysticz28.com/dyno/dynoindex.htm
http://chuckb.1le.net/01_trans_am/
Just a couple I found, i'm sure there is more. It's Just like Chevy VS Ford. Hardcore Chevy guys won't go to a Ford, and Vice versa. They are both good cars and both have their advantages and disadvantages...
05-02-2003, 02:35 PM
#43
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii
Posts: 33
Originally posted by blkss01
It's Just like Chevy VS Ford. Hardcore Chevy guys won't go to a Ford, and Vice versa. They are both good cars and both have their advantages and disadvantages...
It's Just like Chevy VS Ford. Hardcore Chevy guys won't go to a Ford, and Vice versa. They are both good cars and both have their advantages and disadvantages...
I do like the FIPK as far as looks go though......Pull 1 - Stock at 1800 miles - 310 / 334
The T/A was absolutely stock for this baseline dyno, the only thing that has been changed is the oil, and that isn't even synthetic yet. The odometer rolled over 1800 miles on the first pull. The weather is in the mid 70's and nice.
Pull 2 - Simple mods at 12000 miles - 338 / 352
Mods for this dyno are:
K&N FIPK2
Shaner S2 ported throttle body
Hooker catback
ASP 25% underdrive crank pulley
Plastic ported MAF ends
MAF translator tuned with AutoTap by Mark Shaner
28hp
Last edited by Dave@808; 05-02-2003 at 02:41 PM.
05-02-2003, 02:40 PM
#44
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 338
Originally posted by Dave@808
MisterWill, you seem to have all the answers. Despite the fact that you have no evidence to back it up.
I just did a search on the forum and noticed how much time you've invested to prove the FIPK set up to any & all doubters....I realize now that I don't have enough time to argue with a forum goer with as much time as you.
To all others claiming the FIPK makes more HP than a lid, does anyone have hard evidence to support the claim? I know when the FIPK first came out several members posted....can't find the threads now though.....
MisterWill, you seem to have all the answers. Despite the fact that you have no evidence to back it up.
I just did a search on the forum and noticed how much time you've invested to prove the FIPK set up to any & all doubters....I realize now that I don't have enough time to argue with a forum goer with as much time as you.
To all others claiming the FIPK makes more HP than a lid, does anyone have hard evidence to support the claim? I know when the FIPK first came out several members posted....can't find the threads now though.....
First, I take offense at the forum goer reference. Mainly because its misleading and untrue. In the last month I have participated in 3 lid threads, including this one. In one of those threads I made a single post. In another, the discussion went off topic to engine output after I was personally addressed. Which is why I had a high number of posts, when in fact the discussion had nothing to do with lids or FIPK. Each of the threads was a request for information and opinions of intake assemblies. Since I have experience with the K&N FIPK and have seen exceptional results, I replied with my input, as the post originator requested. Isn't that what the forum is for? Take a look in my profile see the number of posts I've made. If I'm a forum goer, what is your reference?
Second, I DO NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS. A search of my posts will show that I spend most of my time in the technical forums "requesting" information. I come here to find information from people with hands on experience. As the search really revealed I spend more time asking for advice than giving it.
Dave, I realize the above post was a response to my previous thread. Payback is fair play and it was expected. We are obviously not going to budge from our positions. So, I agree this needs to stop, fair enough?
I see you've done allot with your car. As I said before I will continue asking for advice from people with hands on experience for my future mods. Perhaps I'll get some good advice from you, huh. Seriously, no pun intended.
05-02-2003, 03:06 PM
#45
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii
Posts: 33
It's all good Will. I have been building high power stuff for over 16 years. Installed (17) blower kits on EFI cars, Countless N20 installations, suspension, exhaust...you name it. Doesn't mean I know more about the FIPK than the next guy though. I like the FIPK, just wanted to see some back to back testing......
I admit to spending waaaaayyy too much time on thsi thread though. Back to work!
I admit to spending waaaaayyy too much time on thsi thread though. Back to work!