Convince me!!
12-05-2003, 10:40 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: garland, tx
Posts: 997
Convince me!!
Convince me to get an LS1. I am looking at getting a LS1 with in a year but i'm not sure. I was going to sell my car and go for a t-top and m6 LT1 or LS1. Preferably a Trans Am. As the 98+ camaros look like catfish. Not to say I wouldn't take one though if the price were right.
And if I do get one should the LS1 be an a4 or an m6.
I would love to drive a stick but some say the a4 is faster AND I have never driven a stick before so idk if I will really like shifting and clutching all the time (even though I think I will).
Also have to factor in the fun faster of driving a stick. I have wanted a stick since I 1st got this car but it was an auto and my parents didn’t want me to get a stick. But now I really want one since riding in a friends LT1 firehawk. It also had 4.10 in it but he scratched the tires by I think taking off in 3rd and scratched them going into 4th. It was amazing and really made me want to get a stick. Just left me wundering what an LS1 could do.
And if I do get one should the LS1 be an a4 or an m6.
I would love to drive a stick but some say the a4 is faster AND I have never driven a stick before so idk if I will really like shifting and clutching all the time (even though I think I will).
Also have to factor in the fun faster of driving a stick. I have wanted a stick since I 1st got this car but it was an auto and my parents didn’t want me to get a stick. But now I really want one since riding in a friends LT1 firehawk. It also had 4.10 in it but he scratched the tires by I think taking off in 3rd and scratched them going into 4th. It was amazing and really made me want to get a stick. Just left me wundering what an LS1 could do.
12-05-2003, 12:18 PM
#2
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Houston, Tx USA
Posts: 1,903
hmmm, its not our job to convince you of anything. Thats YOUR job.
Research. Thats how you will learn and understand what is better.
The A4 isnt so much "Faster" as it is more consistant. That consistancy is what makes it faster overall. The shifting of the auto is all electronically controlled, so with a few mods to the tranny, the car really wakes up and can fly! I used to have one but found that after 6 in 3 years, the trannys werent taking the abuse I put it through too well. I opted for the M6 just because I know it will hold up better to my style of driving (very aggressive, sustained high speed -over 130).
I like them both personally. By reading what you have stated, an LS1 should not be your learning car for a stick. Either find someone that will teach you or get something else. You seem young and inexperienced. You may want to get involved in some local SCCA AutoX if its offered so you can better learn the car and its power. All too often young people get high powered cars and end up memories and statistics. So just be careful.
As for a firehawk starting off in 3rd and spinning the tires then getting a 4th... Hmmm.. I will ASSUME that you were already moving and he just dropped it into 3rd as I dont see anyone launching in 3rd and spinning. He has 4.10 gears so dont look at the gear, look at the speed. I can spin through 1st, 2nd and squel 3rd. But spinning isnt good. Traction is better, so I launch 1st with hardly any spin as I feather off the line, 2nd will come with a slight spin but no real sound other than tire angrily ripping at concrete, then 3rd happens soon after with the slightest squel..Unless I am on asphalt..Then 3rd is silent. I shift 1 line before 6K most of the time.
Research. Thats how you will learn and understand what is better.
The A4 isnt so much "Faster" as it is more consistant. That consistancy is what makes it faster overall. The shifting of the auto is all electronically controlled, so with a few mods to the tranny, the car really wakes up and can fly! I used to have one but found that after 6 in 3 years, the trannys werent taking the abuse I put it through too well. I opted for the M6 just because I know it will hold up better to my style of driving (very aggressive, sustained high speed -over 130).
I like them both personally. By reading what you have stated, an LS1 should not be your learning car for a stick. Either find someone that will teach you or get something else. You seem young and inexperienced. You may want to get involved in some local SCCA AutoX if its offered so you can better learn the car and its power. All too often young people get high powered cars and end up memories and statistics. So just be careful.
As for a firehawk starting off in 3rd and spinning the tires then getting a 4th... Hmmm.. I will ASSUME that you were already moving and he just dropped it into 3rd as I dont see anyone launching in 3rd and spinning. He has 4.10 gears so dont look at the gear, look at the speed. I can spin through 1st, 2nd and squel 3rd. But spinning isnt good. Traction is better, so I launch 1st with hardly any spin as I feather off the line, 2nd will come with a slight spin but no real sound other than tire angrily ripping at concrete, then 3rd happens soon after with the slightest squel..Unless I am on asphalt..Then 3rd is silent. I shift 1 line before 6K most of the time.
12-05-2003, 12:22 PM
#3
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 989
Automatics are only faster once you put a torque converter in it. Otherwise M6's are faster due to gears and less drivetrain HP loss. M6's are a lot harder on the rearend so if you plan to do a lot of modding keep that in mind.
Automantics are better for the track for three reasons.
1). Aftermarket torque converters make them a little quicker then the M6 but only if you get a 3500 stall or better put in.
2). They are very consistent. Once you get launching perfected all your times will be close to each other and in par for the cars current potential. M6's can be consistent to but you have a lot of room for human error via miss shifts or not shifting at the same rpm's/bouncing the rev limiter.
3). Easier on rear end. They can take a lot of HP upgrades before the 10 bolt rear end is in any serious danger. M6's on the other hand will only need a few hp mods added and slicks to be in very serious danger of going kaboom.
M6's are better for the street driving for three reasons.
1). They get better gas milage especially on the highway. A M6 can get 30 mpg on the highway where autos are maybe 22ish. That adds up after awhile.
2). They can always find power safely. If your doing 35 and want to run you downshift to first and hold on to your butt. In an automatic 35mph is a dead spot. The trans was not programed to downshift to first so it stays in second and you move like a V6. It's really pathetic. A torque converter will eliminate the dead spots but the stock A4 has a few places it feels great to punch it on (25 & 60) and a few really bad places (31-40). Now you can downshift a auto manually but that is very bad for the transmission. So M6's stock for stock rule the power finding department.
3). They are more fun to drive. It's not a big secret that rowing through the gears yourself has a lot of appeal to it. It sucks in bumper to bumper traffic but in open roads it kicks all forms off a$$ to shift yourself.
I am going to venture to say you'd be happier in a M6 manual. Unless you want to spend a lot of friday nights at the track you'd probably have more fun in a manual. But remember the advantages I mentioned for the automatic so you don't completely ignore an A4 car if the deal seems to good to pass up.
As far as LS1 vs LT1 get the LS1. You get better gas mileage, better top end power, a lot more RWHP, lower miles on the car would be assumed and IMO the LS1 TA's look better then the LT1 TA's.
Well that's it. Good luck and I hope you get an LS1!
BTW get the TA or Formula. There are lots around so don't take a Z28 if the TA's look better to you. You'd only regret it later if that is how you truly feel.
Automantics are better for the track for three reasons.
1). Aftermarket torque converters make them a little quicker then the M6 but only if you get a 3500 stall or better put in.
2). They are very consistent. Once you get launching perfected all your times will be close to each other and in par for the cars current potential. M6's can be consistent to but you have a lot of room for human error via miss shifts or not shifting at the same rpm's/bouncing the rev limiter.
3). Easier on rear end. They can take a lot of HP upgrades before the 10 bolt rear end is in any serious danger. M6's on the other hand will only need a few hp mods added and slicks to be in very serious danger of going kaboom.
M6's are better for the street driving for three reasons.
1). They get better gas milage especially on the highway. A M6 can get 30 mpg on the highway where autos are maybe 22ish. That adds up after awhile.
2). They can always find power safely. If your doing 35 and want to run you downshift to first and hold on to your butt. In an automatic 35mph is a dead spot. The trans was not programed to downshift to first so it stays in second and you move like a V6. It's really pathetic. A torque converter will eliminate the dead spots but the stock A4 has a few places it feels great to punch it on (25 & 60) and a few really bad places (31-40). Now you can downshift a auto manually but that is very bad for the transmission. So M6's stock for stock rule the power finding department.
3). They are more fun to drive. It's not a big secret that rowing through the gears yourself has a lot of appeal to it. It sucks in bumper to bumper traffic but in open roads it kicks all forms off a$$ to shift yourself.
I am going to venture to say you'd be happier in a M6 manual. Unless you want to spend a lot of friday nights at the track you'd probably have more fun in a manual. But remember the advantages I mentioned for the automatic so you don't completely ignore an A4 car if the deal seems to good to pass up.
As far as LS1 vs LT1 get the LS1. You get better gas mileage, better top end power, a lot more RWHP, lower miles on the car would be assumed and IMO the LS1 TA's look better then the LT1 TA's.
Well that's it. Good luck and I hope you get an LS1!
BTW get the TA or Formula. There are lots around so don't take a Z28 if the TA's look better to you. You'd only regret it later if that is how you truly feel.
12-05-2003, 02:07 PM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Woodward Ave
Posts: 86
[QUOTE]Originally posted by darrens99formul
[B]Automatics are only faster once you put a torque converter in it. Othe
1). They get better gas milage especially on the highway. A M6 can get 30 mpg on the highway where autos are maybe 22ish. That adds up after awhile.
22ish, shoot I get 28 on the highway with a best of 30. Though I do miss a stick, unfortunately I drive mostly in traffic all day long for work so I got an a4 car. But it is still by far the funnest, fastest, most efficient, best bang for the buck vehicle I have ever owned, and I have owned quite a few.
[B]Automatics are only faster once you put a torque converter in it. Othe
1). They get better gas milage especially on the highway. A M6 can get 30 mpg on the highway where autos are maybe 22ish. That adds up after awhile.
22ish, shoot I get 28 on the highway with a best of 30. Though I do miss a stick, unfortunately I drive mostly in traffic all day long for work so I got an a4 car. But it is still by far the funnest, fastest, most efficient, best bang for the buck vehicle I have ever owned, and I have owned quite a few.
12-05-2003, 02:38 PM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 989
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tim vestrand
[B]
It depends on what speed you drive. At 75-80 mph (which is what I cruise at) I'm turning 2500 rpm's with my 3.23's. Now your 2.73's will do a bit better but should still be in the 2200 range I believe. Compare that to a M6 who can do 80 MPH at 1600 rpm's and that's the big difference in manuals vs autos MPG.
I'm sure I can get 28 mpg too if I cruise at 60mph because that keeps my rpm's down at 1600 but I never cruise that slow on the highway unless traffic or road condidtions forces me too. I apologise if I was too vague. We all get good gas mileage at 60mph but only the M6's can maintain that kind of gas milage at 80 mph.
[B]
Originally posted by darrens99formul
Automatics are only faster once you put a torque converter in it. Othe
1). They get better gas milage especially on the highway. A M6 can get 30 mpg on the highway where autos are maybe 22ish. That adds up after awhile.
22ish, shoot I get 28 on the highway with a best of 30. Though I do miss a stick, unfortunately I drive mostly in traffic all day long for work so I got an a4 car. But it is still by far the funnest, fastest, most efficient, best bang for the buck vehicle I have ever owned, and I have owned quite a few.
Automatics are only faster once you put a torque converter in it. Othe
1). They get better gas milage especially on the highway. A M6 can get 30 mpg on the highway where autos are maybe 22ish. That adds up after awhile.
22ish, shoot I get 28 on the highway with a best of 30. Though I do miss a stick, unfortunately I drive mostly in traffic all day long for work so I got an a4 car. But it is still by far the funnest, fastest, most efficient, best bang for the buck vehicle I have ever owned, and I have owned quite a few.
I'm sure I can get 28 mpg too if I cruise at 60mph because that keeps my rpm's down at 1600 but I never cruise that slow on the highway unless traffic or road condidtions forces me too. I apologise if I was too vague. We all get good gas mileage at 60mph but only the M6's can maintain that kind of gas milage at 80 mph.
Last edited by darrens99formul; 12-05-2003 at 03:13 PM.
12-05-2003, 03:02 PM
#7
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: garland, tx
Posts: 997
Originally posted by psychocabbage
hmmm, its not our job to convince you of anything. Thats YOUR job.
Research. Thats how you will learn and understand what is better.
The A4 isnt so much "Faster" as it is more consistant. That consistancy is what makes it faster overall. The shifting of the auto is all electronically controlled, so with a few mods to the tranny, the car really wakes up and can fly! I used to have one but found that after 6 in 3 years, the trannys werent taking the abuse I put it through too well. I opted for the M6 just because I know it will hold up better to my style of driving (very aggressive, sustained high speed -over 130).
I like them both personally. By reading what you have stated, an LS1 should not be your learning car for a stick. Either find someone that will teach you or get something else. You seem young and inexperienced. You may want to get involved in some local SCCA AutoX if its offered so you can better learn the car and its power. All too often young people get high powered cars and end up memories and statistics. So just be careful.
hmmm, its not our job to convince you of anything. Thats YOUR job.
Research. Thats how you will learn and understand what is better.
The A4 isnt so much "Faster" as it is more consistant. That consistancy is what makes it faster overall. The shifting of the auto is all electronically controlled, so with a few mods to the tranny, the car really wakes up and can fly! I used to have one but found that after 6 in 3 years, the trannys werent taking the abuse I put it through too well. I opted for the M6 just because I know it will hold up better to my style of driving (very aggressive, sustained high speed -over 130).
I like them both personally. By reading what you have stated, an LS1 should not be your learning car for a stick. Either find someone that will teach you or get something else. You seem young and inexperienced. You may want to get involved in some local SCCA AutoX if its offered so you can better learn the car and its power. All too often young people get high powered cars and end up memories and statistics. So just be careful.
And as for me (17 young?) having a faster car i hardly EVER show off let alone race or thing im some fast and the furious cuz im 17 and have a fast car. When i 1st got it i didnt floor it for atleast a couple weeks maybe even months tell i know how the car handled and how it would react and yet to this day my car has yet to scare my one bit. I hardly ever do it with other people in the car if that sence its just not worth it unless its just a wide road and there are no cars. So far i have had the car almost a year and have only raced it about 2 times.
12-05-2003, 03:45 PM
#9
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New York
Posts: 20
As the 98+ camaros look like catfish. Not to say I wouldn't take one though if the price were right.
http://www.watercar.com/photos.aspx
12-05-2003, 04:07 PM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: OR
Posts: 2,368
I think the main advantage of the LS1, besides the bump in power stock vs stock is no optispark... Then some weight savings.. The modified the steering slightly, and the springs and shocks are on different rates.. I'm not sure about the 98's, but I know 99 and above the Torsen diff was standard.
I had my first experneices in stick from a few of my friends car.. Still, lets say the first week driving my 99 wasn't pretty.. hehe. after that, I could at least drive around normally.. After that you gain more experience...
Something else to consider.. Unless the car was driven by an old lady, you can be pretty certain it was relatively thrashed. It could be possible, that your 97 may be more reliable and have less problems than some other unknown used car.
I had my first experneices in stick from a few of my friends car.. Still, lets say the first week driving my 99 wasn't pretty.. hehe. after that, I could at least drive around normally.. After that you gain more experience...
Something else to consider.. Unless the car was driven by an old lady, you can be pretty certain it was relatively thrashed. It could be possible, that your 97 may be more reliable and have less problems than some other unknown used car.
12-05-2003, 04:52 PM
#11
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 204
A message board will not "convince you" to trade your LT1 for a LS1. The right car will. I owned a 97 Z28 with an A4 for over four years. I had test driven some LS1's and wasn't impressed. I also wasn't a big fan of the nose (and I still prefer the separate headlights of the LT1.... but that's merely opinion.)
Anyhow, I test drove a 2002 M6 a month ago. That particular car is faster stock than my 97 was with LT's, CAI, cat-back, HPP3+, suspension parts, etc, etc. That 2002 is also the car in my driveway now
So, it's really up to you. If your LT1 is stock, almost any LS1 will be faster. There's no opti on an LS1, the brakes are better, and the rear suspension isn't so rough over bumps. The LS1 also has a 6-bolt main block vs the 2-bolt mains in the F-body LT1. On the flip side, mods for the LS1 are a bit more, and the engine internals are noisier than the LT1. The LS1 also likes oil, consuming a 1/2 to a quart every 3K miles. You can also abuse the crap out of an LT1 for well over 100K miles with little consequence.
Good luck whatever course of action you take
Schantin
2002 Camaro Z28 M6
Anyhow, I test drove a 2002 M6 a month ago. That particular car is faster stock than my 97 was with LT's, CAI, cat-back, HPP3+, suspension parts, etc, etc. That 2002 is also the car in my driveway now
So, it's really up to you. If your LT1 is stock, almost any LS1 will be faster. There's no opti on an LS1, the brakes are better, and the rear suspension isn't so rough over bumps. The LS1 also has a 6-bolt main block vs the 2-bolt mains in the F-body LT1. On the flip side, mods for the LS1 are a bit more, and the engine internals are noisier than the LT1. The LS1 also likes oil, consuming a 1/2 to a quart every 3K miles. You can also abuse the crap out of an LT1 for well over 100K miles with little consequence.
Good luck whatever course of action you take
Schantin
2002 Camaro Z28 M6
12-05-2003, 09:25 PM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Trenton, NJ
Posts: 398
yah definitly sell your crusty old *** lt1 car...if you need a buyer I'll give you a cool grand for it right now as for the ls1 car youll be lucky to sell your car for only a grand less than what you could buy an ls1 powered TA for...id assume youd end up loosing like 4 grand on the deal so i would not recommend it...just pay off your car and in a couple of years you can buy an 02' TA for like 8-9 grand when they're a few years old. Your car is probably capable of 13.6's as it stands so theres no way id recommend goin to a TA only capable of maybe 13.5's or 4's in stock trim with an auto thats senseless. Keep your car and have another in a couple years.
lata
Bill
as for the ls1 car youll be lucky to sell your car for only a grand less than what you could buy an ls1 powered TA for...id assume youd end up loosing like 4 grand on the deal so i would not recommend it...just pay off your car and in a couple of years you can buy an 02' TA for like 8-9 grand when they're a few years old. Your car is probably capable of 13.6's as it stands so theres no way id recommend goin to a TA only capable of maybe 13.5's or 4's in stock trim with an auto thats senseless. Keep your car and have another in a couple years.lata
Bill
12-05-2003, 10:45 PM
#15
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: garland, tx
Posts: 997
Its not like I'm not grateful for my car or anything. The only thing I know about it is that it has driven by a girl (hence the nail polish stain in the back) and she was probably in the military because we found some pictures of documents of records/files in the glob box.
I guess the main reason I wanted was thinking about buying an LS1 was the fast that if I DO sell my car will it be worth it to just bump up to a nice T/A with an LS1 or what not, because I don’t HAVE to get an LS1 even a LT1 would be good. I just really want a stick with t-tops, so I was just wondering if there were any advantages to going to a LS1.
2nd reason was that I wanted to have it my senior year, and if I don't plain on doing it then I’m going to mod this car, and I know some things can be hard to do with an auto like gears, and a cam. That and when I am racing I don't feel like I’m really driving the car just pressing the gas pedal and hanging on.
I guess the main reason I wanted was thinking about buying an LS1 was the fast that if I DO sell my car will it be worth it to just bump up to a nice T/A with an LS1 or what not, because I don’t HAVE to get an LS1 even a LT1 would be good. I just really want a stick with t-tops, so I was just wondering if there were any advantages to going to a LS1.
2nd reason was that I wanted to have it my senior year, and if I don't plain on doing it then I’m going to mod this car, and I know some things can be hard to do with an auto like gears, and a cam. That and when I am racing I don't feel like I’m really driving the car just pressing the gas pedal and hanging on.