Hi All, new guy here and curious what everybody thinks this 1996 Lingenfelter Camaro Z28 car is worth?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevr...spagenameZWDVW

Thanks
Lee

 

I'll guess less than the $13,990 starting bid.

 

i would say around 10k at most, not 14k. the owner just want's money. but it also depends on who wants the car.

 

A couple of really flakey claims in that ad:

Interesting... the ZR1 never got the LT1, it had the LT5 DOHC engine.

But then maybe it doesn't have "a ZR-1 running program"....

 

The car has a ZR-1 timing map in it. Its pretty agressive if I can remember exactly. Copied it directly from a ZR1 car that belongs to another friend of mine. Woke the car up big time. I think Lingenfelters tunes are fairly conservative from them. The rest of the mapping I screwed with.

 

What would a timing map from a totally different engine have to do with a Lingenfelter 383 LT1? You don't just copy a timing map from an engine with vastly different characteristics to another totally unrelated engine. Doesn't make any sense at all. You are grasping at straws, trying to justify a phony claim.

What does a DOHC engine, running speed-density, with a waste-spark ignition, designed by Lotus and built by Mercury Marine in Oklahoma have to do with an LT1 Gen 2 SBC? Any good tuner, with a couple hours on an engine dyno, could come up with the optimum timing map for the LPE engine. Copying would be the first thing a totally inexperienced tunrer would do.

 

The engineer sounds a bit too harsh :-) Even though a blind copy may not be optimal when tuning, it sometimes works better than not doing it.

I've actually copied idle map values from an LT1 into my 86 corvette L98 using the craig moates burn-1 EEPROM burner and Tunerpro RT. I didn't like the gradual slowing down of the idle as the temps increased. My car idles at 1100 for a minute and a half then slows down to 650-700 which is exactly the behaviour I wanted.

The numbers in the map are just values and in my case actually made sense. Maybe the ZR-1 map made this car run better? Never mind the map was copied. It seems to have worked ?

 

Whoops! Sorry about making that incorrect comment. I didn't even bother to READ what was written on the Ebay ad and just parroted the ZR1 comment from the original poster.

What I meant to say was, the timing map was from an 02' ZL1 F-1 supercar, not a ZR1. Kudos Injuneer for catching that.

Plus...I didn't even really proof read the Ebay ad as well. The suspension stuff on the car is Hotchkiss and towards the bottom theres another typo. LT1 edit was used to reprogram the car, not LS1 edit. Even though they both come from Carputing.

Regarding copy and pasting maps.....

As someone thats seen tuning programs from their inception & worked w/every system under the sun (DFI, Motec, Electromotive, etc), its actually a fairly common practice to copy and paste programs to get a baseline tune and work from there. Sometimes I'll come across someones maps that have been screwed with so badly that having a clean slate map with cells that are close to each other is much easier to work with than cleaning up someone elses botched up work.

The 1st time I ever smogged a ZL1 F-1 supercar, I was impressed with how the car magically cleaned up when it got to the 15MPH and 25 loaded mode tests. Up until that point, (above or below) the car was really dirty (high NOx, HC's and CO). So once I got a chance to download & look at the maps on those cars, I got to see exactly what GMMG was doing with their tunes. Very cool. They pulled a bunch of fuel and timing right at those smog testing load points to get the car to clean up since the cams they're using had so much overlap. But I'll tell ya, they did their homework regarding quench, camming & fueling because they were using A BUNCH of timing throughout the whole map. Which is why the car felt MUCH snappier after uploading the timing map into the car. I was afraid of using so much lead in this motor not knowing how the combustion chambers looked and what kind of quench area they created, but it worked. No detonation whatsoever and NOx was fairly low with the vehicle.

So there ya go.

 

Don't you think Lingenfelter did their homework and programmed the PCM correctly when developed their package? To suggest that they did "not do(ing) it" is asinine. It may be a very conservative tune as noted, but it was a tune for the specific engine package they designed, and reflected things like the burn rate for their specific head modifications and porting (which is very good), the quench, compression ratio, A/F ratio required to get 50-state emissions exemption, etc.

Yes, I'm sure a good tuner can improve on it. But I still contend that copying a timing map from what was described in the advertisement at a "ZR1" with an engine that had absolutely nothing in common with the LT1 (other than the fact they were both installed in a GM chassis) was totally illogical.

You are holding up the example of moving data between two very similar SBC's. He was (erroneously) claiming something totally different. And, as we now found out, he didn't do what the eBay advertisement claimed was done.

 

You do MoTeC? Maybe I'll send you my M48Pro tune for the 800HP dry nitrous setup an see if you can improve on it.

PS..... its spelled Hotchkis

 

Yes I do think they did their homework. And the "package" works just fine for what it was set out to do which was offer a good amount of street driveable torque that would pass an ASM or IM240 test. It doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement on the maps for 'maximum power' though.

I knew John before he passed away. Talked tech w/him several times on the phone & met him @ Pomona when Duttweiler was debuting Hurley Blakneys "Silent Thunder". This was right around the time when John @ DFI was working out the kinks in his product in the early 90's. We purchased some items from him (Lingenfelter) for a Vette project we were doing back in the early 90's. Nice guy and very approachable. One of the few fellows at that time that really knew what he was doing.

Illogical? Maybe. Have you compared the maps of an 02' Lingenfelter car vs. a ZR1? I haven't. So honestly, I couldn't tell you if the maps are even close....but ya never know.

One evening 'borrowed' a DFI map (amongst many) from Duttweiler at his shop for an alcohol V-6 Ford and used it in an 83 T-Bird w/a 408 stroker. At that point, you're just looking at mass numbers that are in the range of what you're looking for so you don't have to spend a ton of time critiquing every point of the map. That way you can just go in and make the critical changes that might effect longevity.

What I can tell you is, the letters ZR1 and ZL1 are very close and it was an honest mistake. THAT seems pretty "logical" to me.

I did most if not all of the mechanical mods on this car. The owner isn't as technically savy as either of us nor is the fellow (Im guessing) thats been contracted to sell this car for the owner. Otherwise I'm sure he would have caught the obvious & I'm sure he'll be correcting it was well. So...no harm, no foul.

Like I said, not a big deal. Making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Thanks for the spelling lesson. You'd think that after selling thousands of $$ worth of their product I'd know how to spell it by now. Oh well.

I've always loved Motecs stuff. I remember buying my 1st wide band unit from them for tuning ($1000 bucks back then). What a door opener that was. Now you can buy wide bands for 1/3 the price.

Question. I looked at ur Poncho on ur website. Nice car BTW. Is the 11 sec passes on the squeeze or N/A? Just curious.

I don't really do work for the public much anymore since I closed my shop down of 10 years. I'm just too busy w/my own stuff now & working a regular job. But as you can see, I still help out ex-customers and will do some side jobs here and there. I think I might start a home hobby shop in the next year or so again. I was mostly focused on drivebility diagnosis & engine building/machining & fabrication since that was my background. I love hardcore factory digital and analog wave form/logic diagnosis. All makes and models.

Peace.

John Stevenson

 

Looks like the poster on Ebay has corrected his info. Alls well that ends well! =))

 

My original post simply said there were two flakey claims in the eBay advertisement. They were serious enough to cast serious doubt on the validity of the rest of the claims. In effect, you have verified that they were unintentional errors. Hopefully, the corrections will help the seller regain credibility, and have a better chance of selling the vehicle.... a win-win situation.

The 127.7MPH pass was on a 125-shot.

PS: Not to bust your 'nads any further, but it's MoTeC

 

 

Back to the question.
That's 18 grand in Lingenfelter money!! Any one else, it would be $5,000.00.