T-tops vs. Hard top
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 662
From: albany, ny
Because all hard tops are actually T-Tops with sheet metal over the frame, I think you have the wrong idea if you believe the coupe is significantly more rigid. Wanting to dedicate the car to racing makes sense that you want the modest support from the sheet metal over the inserts but I think the question of a rigidity difference doesn't matter to the rest who just want a sports car for street use. I have owned 1 coupe and two t-top versions and found no difference in driving the cars.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 12,312
From: Aurora, IL
My old third gen was a hardtop, I always wanted it in t-tops, but then again, it was hard enough just to find a third gen at that time. When I was on the hunt for my 4th gen, I wouldn't settle for anything other then t-tops and a black paint job.
Registered User
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,738
From: Charleston, SC
I autocross and roadrace a bit, I have noticed NO differnence. I have owned 2 hardtop 4th gens,and one was coverted to t-tops.
btw, cost me roughly $350 to do a conversion. mildly optioned v6s with 5-speeds are actually kind of rare, LOL
btw, cost me roughly $350 to do a conversion. mildly optioned v6s with 5-speeds are actually kind of rare, LOL
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 115
From: deployed- southwest asia
well, i guess you learn something new every day. though some of you seem to be taking this way too seriously, i was just wondering.... i know that our first GN had stress cracks over the opera windows because it was a ttop car, and you could definitely feel the lack if body rigidity through turns compared to our hard top gn. our convertible has stress cracks behind the rear window and in front of the trunk lid, though its a convertible.
to injuneer about that 8sec convertible- ugly as hell, dont care how fast it is
to injuneer about that 8sec convertible- ugly as hell, dont care how fast it is
Registered User
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 559
From: Pothole, Ohio
The 4th Gen coupes have two more structural elements than the T-tops, with the addition of the stamped steel beams that connect the windshield corners to the rear rood hoop. Saying that these beams provide no structural benefit defies all logic. Is the end result acceptable without those beams.... I think so. But don't write them off as non-existant.
A T-Top car for all intents and purposes is considered a coupe and shares the same body as the hard top car. The only difference between them is a slight variation or rather provision in the roof that allows the t-top panels to seat into the channel and have a boss that allows you to screw the weather stripping into the that particular part of the roof.
The convertible is essentially the same body, it just has extra floor bracing and different quarter panels and trunk.
The sub-frame, front, side glass doors and front end assembly including the rear bumper and pail panel are all the same throughout the hard-top, t-top and conv. I hope that helps.
The convertible is essentially the same body, it just has extra floor bracing and different quarter panels and trunk.
The sub-frame, front, side glass doors and front end assembly including the rear bumper and pail panel are all the same throughout the hard-top, t-top and conv. I hope that helps.
Registered User
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 559
From: Pothole, Ohio
though some of you seem to be taking this way too seriously, i was just wondering.... i know that our first GN had stress cracks over the opera windows because it was a ttop car, and you could definitely feel the lack if body rigidity through turns compared to our hard top gn. our convertible has stress cracks behind the rear window and in front of the trunk lid, though its a convertible.
Although I understand your reason for comparison, the grand national and camaro are as different as the 4th and 5th gen camaros. Referring to the rhetorical question as to why then the 5th generation camaro isn't coming through with t-tops (which i heard rumor that they will be)....
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,507
From: Okemos, MI
F-bodies are a different story, though. I don't know about a 600+hp car, but at stock power levels, there was no measurable change.
Administrator
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 71,098
From: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 269
From: Nebraska
Thirdgens are better if they are hardtop. 4th gens are better with t-tops, just because they made that indention on the hardtop where t-tops should be. Plus, 4th gens made improvements on the t-top design including my favorite: how the t-tops are stored inside the car.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 115
From: deployed- southwest asia
I think you're taking US too seriously josh.
Although I understand your reason for comparison, the grand national and camaro are as different as the 4th and 5th gen camaros. Referring to the rhetorical question as to why then the 5th generation camaro isn't coming through with t-tops (which i heard rumor that they will be)....
Although I understand your reason for comparison, the grand national and camaro are as different as the 4th and 5th gen camaros. Referring to the rhetorical question as to why then the 5th generation camaro isn't coming through with t-tops (which i heard rumor that they will be)....
ive also noticed quite a few members on here that have gn's, so i guess im not the only one on here with a turbo6 in the garage!
injuneer, yes, that looks much better, the top is up! excuse my ignorance, but who's is it? what kind of rear suspension is it running? that launch is STRAIGHT and sexy looking!
Administrator
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 71,098
From: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
Getting a bit off topic..... but:
Used to belong to a guy named George Baxter. For a 2-year period from late 1999, it was the fastest known LT1 (3,950#, 383 LT1 4-bolt block, Vortech S/C, Canfield heads, LT4 manifold) at 9.04/155mph. Eventually he upgraded it to a Gen 1 Dart block, and pushed it to mid 8's/mid 160's running in the PRO/Edelbrock Xtreme Street series. Not bad, considering that the class had limits on weight (3,425#), displacment (383ci), head selection (23*, from limited sources) and even limits on body configuration (e.g. - he had to physically block the SS hood scoop, because the class prohibited scoops). I think it could have run a lot quicker, but he needed some money to start a new business, and he called me one day and asked me to sell it for him - sad day.
The supsension was set up by Steve Spohn... basically the same components you can buy from Spohn:
Rear:
-Spohn adjustable torque arm (a couple extra braces between the tubes, to handle the 1,350HP)
-Spohn tubular LCA's
-Spohn LCA relo brackets
-Spohn panhard rod
-QA1 single-adjustable shocks
-stock springs from my Formula (at least one part of my car has run in the 8's
)
-Wolfe sway bar, mounted under the axle. (this is the key to keeping it level and running straight down the track)
Front:
-Afco double adjustable shocks and springs
-Competition Engineering suspension travel eliminators (this is the key to keeping it on the ground - after we added these, it never pulled the front wheels any more than shown in the photo)
-No sway bar
-PA tubular K-member
-Mark Williams brakes
Some stuff I have online.....
Before the suspension limiters:
http://www.injuneer.com/images/photo.../fGeorgeWS.jpg
Video of the first pass with the Dart block setup:
http://www.injuneer.com/images/Video...eBax%20876.WMV
A PRO/Edelbrock pass:
http://www.injuneer.com/images/Videos/AtcoPRORd1.WMV
Front suspension:
http://www.injuneer.com/images/photo.../DCP03810a.jpg
Rear suspension:
http://www.injuneer.com/images/photo.../DCP03870a.jpg
Engine:
http://www.injuneer.com/images/photo.../DCP03825a.jpg
Used to belong to a guy named George Baxter. For a 2-year period from late 1999, it was the fastest known LT1 (3,950#, 383 LT1 4-bolt block, Vortech S/C, Canfield heads, LT4 manifold) at 9.04/155mph. Eventually he upgraded it to a Gen 1 Dart block, and pushed it to mid 8's/mid 160's running in the PRO/Edelbrock Xtreme Street series. Not bad, considering that the class had limits on weight (3,425#), displacment (383ci), head selection (23*, from limited sources) and even limits on body configuration (e.g. - he had to physically block the SS hood scoop, because the class prohibited scoops). I think it could have run a lot quicker, but he needed some money to start a new business, and he called me one day and asked me to sell it for him - sad day.
The supsension was set up by Steve Spohn... basically the same components you can buy from Spohn:
Rear:
-Spohn adjustable torque arm (a couple extra braces between the tubes, to handle the 1,350HP)
-Spohn tubular LCA's
-Spohn LCA relo brackets
-Spohn panhard rod
-QA1 single-adjustable shocks
-stock springs from my Formula (at least one part of my car has run in the 8's
)-Wolfe sway bar, mounted under the axle. (this is the key to keeping it level and running straight down the track)
Front:
-Afco double adjustable shocks and springs
-Competition Engineering suspension travel eliminators (this is the key to keeping it on the ground - after we added these, it never pulled the front wheels any more than shown in the photo)
-No sway bar
-PA tubular K-member
-Mark Williams brakes
Some stuff I have online.....
Before the suspension limiters:
http://www.injuneer.com/images/photo.../fGeorgeWS.jpg
Video of the first pass with the Dart block setup:
http://www.injuneer.com/images/Video...eBax%20876.WMV
A PRO/Edelbrock pass:
http://www.injuneer.com/images/Videos/AtcoPRORd1.WMV
Front suspension:
http://www.injuneer.com/images/photo.../DCP03810a.jpg
Rear suspension:
http://www.injuneer.com/images/photo.../DCP03870a.jpg
Engine:
http://www.injuneer.com/images/photo.../DCP03825a.jpg
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 521
I've heard that 4th gens were mostly the same, but are you sure on 3rd gens? If that were the case, why was the L98 T-top combination either not recommended or not available depending on the year? I remember Car & Driver mentioning that the Turbo Trans Am should have come with the hardtop rather than the T-top as the stiffness was compromised.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 115
From: deployed- southwest asia
I've heard that 4th gens were mostly the same, but are you sure on 3rd gens? If that were the case, why was the L98 T-top combination either not recommended or not available depending on the year? I remember Car & Driver mentioning that the Turbo Trans Am should have come with the hardtop rather than the T-top as the stiffness was compromised.
injuneer, thats awesome that it could launch that straight and low on a stock setup, i was expecting 4link or something!
