ENRKyle20

I just graduated from colege with a automotive maintenance degree and I am ready to put this knowledge to use. I have spent weeks researching cars and what I want. Here was my criteria:


-Must be a Car (not trucks)
-Under $10,000 (I dont care about miles AT ALL or blown engines)
-Must be a V8
-Rear Wheel Drive (Maybe AWD)
-Manual trans
-CHEAP TO MOD
-Semi Light
-OBDII
-Looks decent (sporty)
-4+ bolt mains would be a plus




I really Want it to be OBDII so I will be able to tune spark and fuel maps and watch for knocking on a computer. I dont want to work with a carberator, I know how but I strongly prefer fuel injection. If i do end up going with a pre OBDII fuel injected car then I will use a standalone fuel managent system, but I would prefer OBDII. I would like parts for the enine to be mass produced so the prices are semi low. once I get the car I will yank the engine right away and start with fresh cylinder walls and a stroker crank forged pistons and conn rods, fairly big cam, (rockers if its a pushrod engine), gear2gear timing (if avalable), headers - Cat delete pipes back to flowmasters, and a good wideband o2 to monitor it all. I will also upgrade fuel pump and injectors. and add oil temp, voltage, oil pressure and a few other crucial gauages.






SO based on that I have narrowed it down to a LT1 or LS1 powered car, Thats why im here. But I can not decided. I have hears that the LS1 is a much better engine and I have heard that its not THaT much better. I have hears that the LT1 has more torque at low end and the LS1 has a brauder torque curve. But I really dont know what to believe. So I come he asking What engine should I be looking for?

at this point I am leaning twords the LT1 because its so cheap to mod, but people are telling me there is a limit to what you can do to those engines. (what is the limit?) I know it will be more expensive to mod a LS1 but is it worth is?..





Thanks for any help!

foxbat

a few things to consider:

1) ls1 is about 20-50 hp stronger from the factory
2) ls1 is much easier to work on (i.e. plugs, wires, and no opitspark!!)
3) ls1 is newer technology and responds well to mods
4) ls1 is faster than an lt1 (stock vs stock). BUT, an lt1 will often win a 0-60 or 0-80 run. ls1 will walk away above those speeds.
5) lt1 has just as much high hp modification potential as the ls1, but you start out cheaper buying the lt1, and a bit behind in hp since the ls1 has a 20-50 hp head-start.
6) lt1 has a throatier v8 rumble than an ls1
7) lt1 also responds very well to mods

for me, money/performance wasn't really an overwhelming factor deciding between both, but rather the styling differences between them. i preferred the look of the lt1 generation so i went that way. others may prefer the ls1 styling as well as the arguably 'better' motor.

hope that helps.

ENRKyle20

well you definaly bring up some good points.. but that still leaves me undecided. they both have there posatives and negatives.

Thanks for your input.

foxbat

as with most dilemmas, only YOU must decide....we can't do that for you we will provide you with the information you need, and you decide which avenue suits your styles/budget/fancy etc.

good luck

Injuneer

An F-Body is not a light car.

The LT1 OBD-I PCM's can be programmed cheaper than the OBD-II PCM, using LT1_Edit or TunerCat.

You just ruled out F-Bodys.... LT1 is 2-bolt main, unless is was a factory mistake and they started with the Corvette 4-bolt main short block. The LS1 is a 6-bolt main engine. Not a major consideration, since you would be looking at 4-bolt mains on the LT1 with a "power adder" application, and a 4-bolt main conversion would be a manageable cost in a major block build.

As noted above, real-time scanning and laptop programming is available for both OBD-I and OBD-II V8 models.

All 4th Gens are injected.

Again, you are laboring under the false impression that OBD-I can not be tuned. It can be, and people are running 1000+HP turbo'd LT1's with the stock OBD-I PCM.

The LT1 (Gen 2 SBC) block and heads are "limited" production, compared to the Gen 1 and Gen 3 SBC's.

LT1 and LS1 engines are pushrod engines.

You talk above about monitoring knock retard, and about a gear drive timing set. Those two goals are not compatible. Too much noise, even with the "silent" gear drives. Intersting article in Engine Masters magazine a year or so ago.... could find no appreciable difference in performance between gear drive, belt drive and chain drive setups.

A popular misconception. I've seen the torque curves for the stock Corvette versions of the LT1 and early year LS1 engines overlayed on one another, and there's no significant difference in low end torque. The LS1 just continues to build torque above 4,000rpm. But what difference does that make, since it appears you are going to rebuild the engine with performance parts anyway. A "big cam" is generally not a torque monster at low RPM.

Both the LT1 and the LS1 engines have been used in 4th Gens running low 8-second 1/4-mile. The LSx family is now approaching mid-7's, but that's because of the availability of a wide selection of after-market blocks. The LT1 is the forgotten step-child in many aspects. Recently a couple new head designs, but no aftermarket block, and limited parts like timing sets, etc.

ENRKyle20

dude. thank you so much for your time making that post.. that is SO helpful..



the 4th gen F-body is arround 3200lbs wich is not exremly heavy. a GTO is 3700 lbs so I would be happy with 3200lbs



Well, knowing that I can tune with OBDI opens a whole new door. so If i decide on a LT1 then I will not be exclusivly looking for 96 and 97. I can go back to 1993. wich is good because I found a 93 transam with HIGH miles 200,000 for $2,500 seems like a perfect candate if I plan on going with a LT1. Only thing is its automatic, how much would a manual swap cost?


the LT1 is a 2 bolt main, im looking at about 4-$600 for a 4 bolt conversion. I dont know if its completly necesary with 500 hp but I will definatly take that into account when deciding on a LS1 ot LT1


Yea. I never considered the G2G timing messing up the knock sensor. I had it on my old camaro and it sounds geeat. thats the whole reason I waned it, but I will rule that out right now. Thanks.lol




So, with this info I have at hand. I am prety sure I will go with a LT1. this is my first real build and I would like to start cheap just incase.

Red93Camaro

In my opinion...I like LT1s better, I love the Sound...The way the Camaros look, The intake manifold lol I love them

Injuneer

Race weight on my 94 Formula ( a "stipper" like the base Z28) was 3,760#, with me at 180#. A buddy of mine had a 9.0-second 97 SS convertible, and race weight with him in it (235#) was close to 4,000#. He stripped it down to 3,500# to run low 8's in the PRO/Edelbrock Xtreme Street series. I've got mine down to 3,535# with a lot of parts removed. When you upgrade the drivetrain, suspension and other body parts to handle big power, throw in a 6-point roll bar (required under 11.5-sec) or a full cage (required under 10.0-sec or over 135MPH), you add a lot of the weight back in. Total strippers, with extensive use of composite body parts, dash assemblies, etc can go under 3,000#, but that's a "track" car.

Go to the "Computer Programming...." forum an look around. Also:

OBD-I Scanners:
http://www.ttspowersystems.com/
http://www.andywhittaker.com/

OBD-I tuner software:
http://www.carputing.com/
http://www.tunercat.com/

Cable:
http://www.akmcables.com/

Hold on... 93 is OBD-I, but it is the only year F-Body LT1 with a removable chip in the ECM. It can not be flashed, you have to burn a new chip. 94/95 have fixed chips and can be flashed.

A complete T56 setup with clutch, hydraulics, bellhousing, tranny, shifter, cross-member and pedals will run $1400-1800 for parts (used). When I converted to the TH400 I sold my T56 with a Street Twin clutch and bellhousing balistic blanket for $2,200, but the Street Twin is an $1,100 clutch). Most people do the A4->M6 swap themselves. You will need the PCM reflashed, since 94 up the 4L60E was run off the PCM, and there are a couple interfaces from the PCM to the T56, including the "skip shift" solenoid and reverse lockout solenoid, plus the tooth count on the reluctor for the vehicle speed sensor (VSS) on the tailshaft is different.

Could probably do it closer to $400. I had my LT1 converted to splayed 4-bolt mains, but that's a 500HP NA setup, with a 300-shot of nitrous on it. At 500 flywheel HP, the 4-bolt conversion isn't necessary. Some billet caps might help though. For 4-bolt conversion parts, look at the Pro-Gram Engineering stuff.... top of the line.

There was a guy who posted on another forum that adapted a Pete Jackson gear drive to his LT1. You need to swap in an electric water pump, since the LT1 water pump is driven off the timing set, and aftermarket chain or gears with not have the teeth on the inside of the cam sprocket. He did a writeup on the conversion, including the mods to the timing cover. He removed it several months later, because of the extreme noise.

You don't have to run a knock sensor, but a lot of people want it. Its good if you don't have a reliable source of proven fuel. You never know what you are going to get out of the pump. I don't run a knock sensor, but for max performance use, the engine only sees VP Fuels racing fuel, out of a drum in my shed.

ENRKyle20

dude, your amazing. you are so helpful and knowlagable.

Yea. I made a mistake on the weight, its closer to 3450 stock, then you add a driver and parts, I see where your coming from there,so its not a light car.. but I can handle it.



Thanks so much for the links for software and scanners.. great!.. One more question about this. Do you have any info on tuning a 96 and 97 LT1?.. Just incase thats what I find. also I just found out that there is no more emission tesing (sniff tesT) in my area on 95 and older OBDI. so thats a hige advantage for a 1995 and older for me.


so stay away from the 93's then.. ok. thanks.. I will be looking for a 1994 to 1997 LT1 equiped vehicle. and I dont want to mess with all that garbage swaping trans. so I will be sure its manual when i but it. wich brings up another question. how were the manual trannys on the 93-87 LT1 powere vehicles?. and are they diffrent than the LS1 trannys?

Thanks for the info on the 4 bolt conversion. I will get my mod list down and run the numbers threw Desktop Dyno and decide then If i think i will need it or not. I have not decided on heads and some other stuff yet so I dont know if I will need 4 bolt mains or not.


if G2G timing is that much troubble I wont mess with it. I will just go with a GMPP or Lunati timing set and be done with it.

and I will be running pump gas so I would prefer a knock sensor. I need that for tuning to.

Thanks again!



I have definatly decided on a LT1. a 94-97 LT1 powere vehicle. (or LT4 if the vehicle I buy has it. 96 or 97 might have it, but since I will be moding it it does not matter LT1 or LT4)

so here is my choises:

1992-1996 Chevrolet Corvette C4
1993-1997 Chevrolet Camaro Z28
1993-1997 Pontiac Firebird Formula and Trans Am
1994-1996 Buick Roadmaster
1994-1996 Cadillac Fleetwood
1994-1996 Chevrolet Caprice
1994-1996 Chevrolet Caprice Police Package
1994-1996 Chevrolet Impala SS
1994-1996 Chevrolet Caprice Wagon
1994-1996 Buick Roadmaster Wagon



the only ones in that list that i like is the camaro and TA. so there it is. I need to start looking for a 94-97.

Thanks EVERYONE for helping me deicde!

Injuneer

Tunercat had a tuning package for the OBD-II LT1's, but they sold it to JET. Go to the JET website to find it. At the carputing.com website I linked above, you will also find OBD-II tuning software.

Any OBD-II scanner will work. A lot of people use AutoTap with GM enhanced parameters for the 96/97's.

If you don't have emissions, you can always run a 96 or 97 LT1 with a 94/95 OBD-I PCM. Many people do that to get away form the repressive emissions diagnostics, and to use the much lower cost OBD-I tuning software. The only real difference between OBD-I and -II is the added emissions monitoring in OBD-II, including misfire detection, double checks on the AIR system operation, post-cat O2 sensors to verify cats are there and working, double checks on EVAP flow, and a more aggressive EGR verification diagnostic. All of that can be "tuned out" of the OBD-II PCM's, or you can just run the OBD-I PCM. The only interface difference would be the need to swap a 93-95 knock sensor in if you switch to the OBD-I PCM, or add a resistor to the PCM, to compensate for the higher impedance of the OBD-II knock sensor.

No, I didn't say to stay away, just wanted you to be aware that the 93 PCM needs a chip. You can burn your own. And the 93 differs in many other ways.... batch fire injection instead of full sequential, speed-density programming rather than mass-air, no tranny controls in the ECM, unheated single-wire O2 sensors, etc. See below re M6 transmission.

All 4th Gen V8's use the Borg-Warner (now Tremec) T56 6-speed manual. 93's used a slightly weaker version, actually two different versions, with steeper 1st gears and different gear ratios, and correspondingly lower numerical rear axle ratios (2.73:1 or 3.23). The 93 did not have the "skip shift" feature to force you to shift from 1st to 4th gear under some throttle/rpm combos, to increase fuel mileage and avoid the gas-guzzler tax.

94 to 02 use the same gear sets (2.66 1st gear) and the same 3.42 rear axle ratio. They all have the "skip shift" lockout (very easy to eliminate). The LT1 version of the T56 differs from the LS1 version, with the LS1 version having a longer input shaft, a conventional "pusher" style clutch with the slave mounted on the front of the tranny. The LT1 version has a shorter input shaft, an oddball "pullback" clutch design, with the slave mounted to the bell housing. They are all strong trannies.... 600hP is no problem. Over that you might want better shift forks, synchros, input and output shafts.

ENRKyle20

Well I bought a Car..

I paid $4,500 and will spend $150 on gas to get there, and get the car back.

Its a 1995 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 with about 86,000 miles that is located about 90 miles from me. Its got the LT1 and a 6 speed manual and some light mods. Engine was just rebuilt with the lower end of engine remaining stock however, it does have a GM LT4 hot cam kit with cam lifters, valve springs and roller rockers all installed from GM. Vehicle also has brand new msd distributor, msd plug wires and ignition coil along with pace setter headers. SLP cold air induction kit. High flow convertor, flow master exhaust. Clutch replaced 10,000 miles before engine work was done. Tires have 40-50 tread left.

he didnt say exactly when the engine was rebuilt, and I dont know if he has paper work for it.. but I really dont care alot about that. says its adult owned, but who knows. only problem mentioned was a few light scuffs and scratches and a tear in the seat.


those mods have to add up to $1500 or so. so I figure I got I prety good deal. especially with kinda low miles.

here is some pics:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...MEWN:IT&ih=001

I was originally bidding on it, but the reserve was not met. biding went up to $4,280. his reserve was at 4,600. I offered him 4500 and he took it.

euforia51

Yeah... that's alright man. I might have low-balled him a little more but it looks like a decent car from the pics. I don't have much techy stuff to offer here other than a plug for the LT-1. I think you're going to like it. Plus you've already heard from one of the resident gurus' in this post so you'll have a lot of help with it if you need it. Have fun and good luck with it!

ENRKyle20

well. here is how it went down. there was an auction with a reserve. I asked what it was and he said that the buy it now was 4600. (I know , he didnt give a straight answer about what the reserve was set at, but I assume thats what he ment) I seen the auction going up to 4200 with 3 hours left. I checkout the retail value and private party value and the price of some of the mods on it. I relaised it was a prefect car for me, and offered him 4500. you dont really see alot of cars this old with under 100K. Plus looking at ebay prices, the is right allong with them on this car, maybe a little lower. I have looked at about 30 camaro and TA;s, 70% were V6's, 20% were V8s with automatics, and the other 9% were more than I wanted to spend and/or overprices (high miles to) Here is a rough estimate of what I think the mods are worth and what it might be doing to the car that helped me deicded to offer $4500


LT4 Hot Cam/Lifter/ValveSpring/RR = $574.99 (link at bottom)
LT4 Intake = $185.00 (Price of LT1 ported and polished and painted red)
SLP Induction = $269.99 LINK
Flowmaster = $80 (Assuming it a hack job, this would be the cheapest you can get a flowmaster)
PaceSetters - $296 (cheapest I could find with shipping)
MSD Components - $297.60 (More than I thought, but $100 wires, $155Optispark cap, and $40 coil)

Total Mods: $1703.58

I dont believe the intake is a cheap ebay one either, the pics look the same as the SLP one. So looks like at a minimum he has $1500 into it. thats $1500 of stuff I was going to do in addition to my mods.

(He did not say it has a lt4 intake manifold, but there is either work done to the stock one, or it has a LT4 manifold - its red. red is not stock, so either its just a LT1 painted, or its a LT1 painted and ported and polished - wich add about the same ammout of HP I believe.. but if this guy spends money on LT4 cam and valvetrain then I bet he didnt just paint it)

Heres the contriversal part. lol.. I know you dont get as much as advertised, but I think my number are close to actual (complete guess)


275HP - STOCK HP
25HP - GM LT4 hot cam kit with cam lifters, valve springs and roller rockers (LINK clains up to 40HP)
10HP - LT4 Intake Mani / P+P LT1
2HP - SLP Cold Air Box
3HP - Flowmaster
8HP - High Flow Cat
12HP - Headers
1HP - MSD Distributer, Coil, And Wires

Total: 336HP - Wich is not bad.


Now with this car. I ger resonaly low miles, and all the east stuff is done. now all I really have to do it to reach my goal is stroke it, some nice heads (if its not LT4 heads), injectors and pump, a little juice (wet), a tune, and a LSD with some nice gears. (and most likely a diffrent cam)

So I think it will work out good.

I am very happy I found a 95 also. That works out GREAT for me, in less than a month nothing 95 and older will need to get emission tested. Also, 95 PCM are cheaper to tune (Thanks again for the info injuneer) I have played with the TunerCat software and I am VERY impresed and excited to use it. Its so simple but but powerful!

euforia51

I would guess that HP to be in the ballpark also with that list of mods. You can search on here. Lot's of people on here have similar mods with dyno results. Did the guy say he did a dyno(s) with all of this stuff?

As for the price, I just bought a '97 TA Vert this weekend and got a great lesson on low-balling from one of the peeps on here. His advice saved me a lot of money. The bottom line is everyone knows times are tough right now and quite a few are out there looking to unload their 'gas guzzler' for almost any reasonable offer. So that's why I brought it up. Regardless, like I said, it looks like you got yourself a nice car with an M6 and the price isn't all that bad.

The only downside to having one of these is the easiest thing to do is put gas in it. They can be a pain in the **** when it comes time to work on them... at least the first time around. You'll find that out... but persistence and patience will pay off.

Sorry for the ramble. I won't do it again since this section is more tech than talk.

ENRKyle20

your imput is apreciated. allong with everyone. This is a great forum and thanks everyone for the help.