I understand why some of you would like to see a compressor map, but the point is that unless you are racing compressor maps in some sort of D & D game, it doesn't matter. Much like flowing the exhaust side of a head in the same direction of the intake doesn't tell you anything except how well the head flows in reversion.
Compressor maps are produced by driving the supercharger with an electric motor and taking measurements. Much like the SAE "standard". ATI has stated our policy on this "standard". (in quotes because it is not the industry's standard, but Vortech's. We don't happen to agree with the process). Turbo enthusiasts are used to looking at compressor maps as they are common in that market segment. They are also a freewheel design and react differently when put to use. Right now in the centrifugal performance supercharger market there are 4 brands suitable for a V-8. ATI, PAXTON, POWERDYNE and VORTECH. As most of you are aware Paxton and Vortech are the same company. Poor paxton has been passed around more than a Christmas fruitcake over the years. Never the less VORTECH is the only company that I'm aware of that has published a compressor map of their head unit, and one of ours. While its important to us to try to satisfy our customers and potential customers, its not necessary or necessarily accurate to use a compressor map to compare superchargers that will be put in actual competition or performance use. We've proven that, and so have our contemporaries. We're just not bound to do something because others do. Frankly many of you think you need a map make an informed purchase, but you do not.

Again, if anybody has a question pre or post purchase please give us a call in tech. If we don't have the answer we will do our best to find our for you as we work hand in hand with engineering. Many of your questions can be answered with basic math and most of that information has been posted here before....

To make it clear we provide a wide range of information to you regarding supercharger specifications that we feel are pertinent and useful for comparison between our models. Its not as if we have something to hide as was insinuated. We proudly stand behind the performance of our product and will stand toe to toe with any comparable model. It is the combination of parts in the system, whether its the S/C I/C system or chasssis/driver combination. We all know its how it comes together that makes the difference.

 

Compressor testing has been done for decades. I deal with compressor maps weekly. It's nothing new and, in almost every case, the compressor is not permanently installed in the same conditions that the test was performed under. It would be nearly impossible to set up a 5000 hp I-R process gas compressor on the test stand using poisonous MeCl as the test fluid. Does that make the compressor map any less useful? Nope. I don't really care how the maching is driven - whether by turbine, electric motor, or recip engine - as long as they accurately measured hp. I am familiar with compressor design and what efficiencies are satisfactory and what is not. 75% is good. 80%+ is achievable. 59% and someone clearly didn't do their homework. What does poor efficiency mean? Higher hp to drive the compressor and hotter discharge temps. THAT IS FACT. It doesn't matter how you drive it, what kind of engine you have, how much the car weigh's, whether or not it's manual or auto: a less efficient blower will make less power in the end.

It's easy to sit back and say, "We're not racing compressor maps." Well, we're not racing flowbench's, Cam doctors, dyno's, Spintron's, or WBO2 meters, either. But, if you use them all to your advantage, YOU WILL put together the best combination possible.

 

I would much rather see the adiabatic and second law effiecency of the blower I'm considering to buy..

1. So I get an idea of how much heat to expect out of the thing and
2. to get an idea of how much work is needed and wasted as compared to the competitor.


I would trust 2 compressor maps back to back more than 2 cars with 2 different blowers. You have 2 different pulley setups, different plumbing, etc..

 

Not to mention that turbocharger manufacturer almost universally make this data available...

Saying that compressor maps and flow tests are only useful for "bench racing" compressors is ludicrous. That's like saying the wattage label on a light bulb is only useful for competing with light meters. Its information to the consumer used to make a purchase.

Data is data, and accurate data in context is information, and information is always nice when you're asked to shell out four grand.

 

Wait just one second, I'm sure the light bulb manufacturers test them in a test chamber with stable temperature under regulated voltage. That's not indicative of actual installations where these factors can vary, so their test data is inadmissable and can not be used to compare light bulbs.

 

So the consensus of those of you participating in this discussion is that regardless of the success of past/present ATI users that had no compressor maps to look at you require one before making a purchasing decision?

If that is the case, then I am very sorry that we can't supply your supercharger needs. It would appear that some of you are in fact ATI customers and others are turbo enthusiasts.

Just out of curiosity what head units are you demanding a map on?

 

The success of racers is irrelevant to me. Stock Eliminator LT1's are running deep in the 10's on mostly stock heads with stock sized valves, naturally aspirated. Are they fast because of those heads? Don't think so. My point is that a well set up, light weight racecar with a handicap can still be very fast. I'M NOT SAYING THAT THE PROCHARGER IS A HANDICAP, JUST THAT WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION TO KNOW FOR SURE.

And ATI/Procharger will continue to be successful because you have a truly great marketing department. 90% of consumers will fall for the marketing, but if you want that discriminating extra 10%, you have to go the extra mile.

The D1SC and the F2 is what originally started the discussion. Back when I bought my supercharger, I was interested in the P-1 and the D-1, but I am no longer running a supercharger, nor am I looking to purchase one.

 

Just what do you mean by "fall for the marketing"? We advertise real performance gains conservatively. We are proud of our accomplishments and regularly feature customers and racers in our ad material. We will continue to be successful because of our determination to maintain and develop the best performing supercharger systems on the market and our commitment to that goal.

I am not sure why you as a turbo afficianado are participating in a thread dabating the availability of something you have no interest in using, but I'm sure somebody appreciates your input.



Happy Holidays!! And please don't drfnk and drive this weekend.

 

What I meant by that was you guys have a sharp website, high quality brochures, and always have boothes at trade shows with your superchargers on the hot new cars like the 2005 Mustang. Most people see this and assume that the same effort and care goes into the aerodynamic design of the compressor wheels and casings. Others (like me) want to see more.

I was hoping you would appreciate my input. I bought a Vortech several years ago over a Procharger simply due to the fact that I knew the compressor was a good design based on the map. If I had a map showing the D-1 was better, you would have one more sale under your belt. I'm sure there are other perspective buyers like me.

Perhaps if Procharger published it's maps, it would force Vortech to design and sell a better product. Or maybe the opposite would happen. Either way, it would push the technology further and the consumer would end up with a better product. With turbocharger compressors running 78+% efficient and the best superchargers running 74%, I know there's room for improvement.

Personally, I may be a huge nerd, but I like looking at compressor maps and making comparisons/correlations between impeller blade angle, casing volute taper, and inlet and outlet sizes to see if and when text book compressor theory is correct.

 

I have to agree with engineer mike on this one. Here is my story:

I purchased my first supercharger back in 1995, P600B with the 2 core intercooler. Ati sent me some articles in the mail and lured me in that way. I remember calling Vortech too. I talked to some guy who had an attitude so that drove me away from them. The ati ran pretty well and added a lot of power, but the unit makes a lot of noise at idle and the location of the 2 core intercooler was nothing but problems. Hoses blew off and the car would stall. Had to jack the car up to fix it. You have to remove the intercooler in order to change the belts. What a ****ing PITA.

Then I went to 12-rib pulleys and the twin intercoolers. This costs me another $1600 at the time. I managed to make over 500 rwhp. But then there were constant problems with the tensioner system ati supplied. It is inadequate if you ask me.

The P600B blower held up pretty well, but one time there was a bearing noise and I had to return it to ati. They told me they tested it on a bench and nothing was wrong with it, but it looked like some new seals and nuts were added when I got it back like they took it apart. At this point I started having some doubts. I'm pretty sure they replaced a bearing inside the unit but the guy lied to me about it.

Then a few guys on this board around 1998 started having failed head units and pieces going into the motor, destroying it, defineately remember reading about that.

When I heard about the vortech V2, which has helical cut gears and is quiet, that got my attention. Got sick of the noisy gear whine from the procharger. Basically I was the only guy on the road with this noisy thing, nobody else.

I bought that Vortech kit a few years back with the aftercooler. The V2 makes more power and torque under the curve, and especially at lower rpms. It only uses an 8 rib belt too. My car never pulled like that before, no doubt about it. The vortech kit is not cheap buy any means.

But, the V2 had a failed front bearing after a few months. Vortech said you have to lower the tension. Oh ya, that's the way it came in your kit, with an automatic ford tensioner. Anyway, just goes to prove nobody is perfect.

If I were you, look into the vortech Ysi blower with a carb enclosure kit. That would be perfect for a big block. 1000+ HP for sure.

 

 

This very discussion hits the bit of uncertainty I have in my build.

As an engineer I relate to engineermike's comments 100%. Trying to determine what SC I will use for my build has caused me a great deal of frustration due mainly to the fact that I can't do any real analysis of what an ATI will do for my set up. I have tried to abtain what ever info they actually do offer on their F2 model but I keep repeatedly getting sent info on the P1sc kit they have for fbodies.

All I would like to know is a little info on how it performs in a certain range.

engineermike touched on their advertising and customer reviews. And I think what he was refering to is the fact that in the engineering world that would never fly.

"Well John vendor A has a part that can achive 69% eff @ Pr2.2 and 1200 CFM but vendor B was used by our competitor and has a pretty flyer. ...boy I really don't know my thermo and fluids classes never talked about pretty fliers"

Two of my friends have showed me there SCs (S-trim and a D1sc) and I thought visually they both looked like very nice units.

I'm not trying to offend you Mark and I hope you can take my sarcasm, I'm just trying to express my pt of view. I'm considering both Vortech and ATI but Vortech is the only company giving me anything to work with.

Mark seeing that you are from tech sevices maybe you can help me.

Also, not to high jack this thread but, Alvin does PCMforless ever do dyno days in CT ?

 

Just a quick comment here... upon looking, the only Vortech flow map I could find was for the S-Trim. Do they not publish maps for their full range of compressor either?

 

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html