Need help... Datamaster log
09-20-2008, 06:35 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sharpsville, PA
Posts: 387
Need help... Datamaster log
Wondering if anyone can take a look at my datalog from my TA. I am experiencing all kinds of knock retard going on even after backing off the timing. The car is also a little rich. I am wanting to learn how to tune and today is the first day I have taken on messing with any spark or fuel. I am taking away timing and it still retards it just as much every time I go make a new log, even though I am running less timing. I can't determine if these is real knock or false knock. The plugs do not show signs of detonation.
I can email the file immediately.
Setup is as follows
-LPE CNC ported heads
-AI 226/234 .570/.575 110lsa cam
-LS7 lifters
-Chromoly pushrods, ARP 7/16 studs, Crane 1.6rr, new style Comp 918 springs, etc
-Stock bottom end, roughly 10.6:1 comp
-Auto with 3400 stall and 3.42 gears
-LT headers, 3" true duals, EWP, 58mm tb
Perfect fuel pressure, injectors, fuel filter, pump, and strainer are all new. Plug wires are new, opti and coil are healthy. It does have a LT4 knock module
I would expect it to like a lot more timing than what I am giving it. Like I said I backed it off by 5-8 degrees in some places and it still pulls that much out.
At WOT AFR is rich being in the high 10 low 11 range, but that could not slow it down this much. I haven't messed with fueling at WOT yet.
Car only ran 86mph in the 1/8th so it is not making much power. Should be running 92-94.
I can email the file immediately.
Setup is as follows
-LPE CNC ported heads
-AI 226/234 .570/.575 110lsa cam
-LS7 lifters
-Chromoly pushrods, ARP 7/16 studs, Crane 1.6rr, new style Comp 918 springs, etc
-Stock bottom end, roughly 10.6:1 comp
-Auto with 3400 stall and 3.42 gears
-LT headers, 3" true duals, EWP, 58mm tb
Perfect fuel pressure, injectors, fuel filter, pump, and strainer are all new. Plug wires are new, opti and coil are healthy. It does have a LT4 knock module
I would expect it to like a lot more timing than what I am giving it. Like I said I backed it off by 5-8 degrees in some places and it still pulls that much out.
At WOT AFR is rich being in the high 10 low 11 range, but that could not slow it down this much. I haven't messed with fueling at WOT yet.
Car only ran 86mph in the 1/8th so it is not making much power. Should be running 92-94.
09-21-2008, 08:41 AM
#3
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sharpsville, PA
Posts: 387
I changed back to my original tune that I have not messed with at all. I wanted to start over from square one.
I went out and took a new log on this tune. This is just idling and driving around, and it seems to me that it just randomly pulls timing. It will be under similar conditions at different times and one time it will pull no timing and another it pulls a ton. Towards the end of the log I loaded it on purpose, gradually laying the pedal down to ~30% and it retarded it 9*
I want to get the part throttle stuff right before going on to WOT, I think it will keep things more simple for me and it's probably what I should have done in the first place. I hosted the log here
logforbase.uni
I went out and took a new log on this tune. This is just idling and driving around, and it seems to me that it just randomly pulls timing. It will be under similar conditions at different times and one time it will pull no timing and another it pulls a ton. Towards the end of the log I loaded it on purpose, gradually laying the pedal down to ~30% and it retarded it 9*
I want to get the part throttle stuff right before going on to WOT, I think it will keep things more simple for me and it's probably what I should have done in the first place. I hosted the log here
logforbase.uni
Last edited by fergymoto; 09-21-2008 at 08:44 AM.
09-21-2008, 10:33 AM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Engineerland
Posts: 1,517
Ok well your first problem is that your injectors do not match your programming. When its on 108 for the blm's that is as much fuel as it can pull. Fix that right away before you hurt something like the plugs or engine. I dont doubt you think its running rich and its way too rich at wot... because it cannot help but be.
Your second problem is that you do not have enough timing in it at idle try 28 from 400-1600, and your overspeed and underspeed spark tables are too aggressive. How can your idle be anything near stable when your timing is jumping around anywhere between 19 and 26 degrees.
I think your knock retard is something banging off of the floorboard, or something random sometimes. The one where it picked up knock where you were doing 67mph... dont try to accelerate in high gear unless its very light. 40% throttle at 2000 rpm in high gear is a recipe for real knock if i ever heard it. If you have to give it that much throttle to accelerate its time to take it down a gear, try to use your gears to accelerate rather than engine power. That is the best way there is to avoid knock retard. High rpm is a good thing here, it means the engine is happier and isnt working as hard to do the same job.
You need to close up your tb blades more or start looking for a vacuum leak as well. At the end of your log the sucker is on 0 steps. I like to see them around 100 steps at hot idle on cammed cars. Helps with blms at idle.
Also my advice is that you try several of the local gas stations to find out which ones have better gas. Shell usually does pretty good for me, amaco is good also, and inconsistantly kroger is good.
Part throttle tuning is not terriby important in the scheme of things as long as you're not on the limits. It will help you control the open loop air fuel ratio better when its warming up though. When your closed loop blms are 128, what you command for open loop a/f is what you are going to get.
You should also think about resetting your blm cell boundaries. For cammed engines a good baseline is 45-60-80 for map. I use 1300-1600-2000rpm for the rpm boundaries what you need may vary but you should get the car using as many cells as possible for how you drive.
Download blm locker for wot while you're at it so you dont end up chasing your tail if you end up with blm's over 128 and the pcm adding fuel and never getting the same wot more than once with the same tune.
Your second problem is that you do not have enough timing in it at idle try 28 from 400-1600, and your overspeed and underspeed spark tables are too aggressive. How can your idle be anything near stable when your timing is jumping around anywhere between 19 and 26 degrees.
I think your knock retard is something banging off of the floorboard, or something random sometimes. The one where it picked up knock where you were doing 67mph... dont try to accelerate in high gear unless its very light. 40% throttle at 2000 rpm in high gear is a recipe for real knock if i ever heard it. If you have to give it that much throttle to accelerate its time to take it down a gear, try to use your gears to accelerate rather than engine power. That is the best way there is to avoid knock retard. High rpm is a good thing here, it means the engine is happier and isnt working as hard to do the same job.
You need to close up your tb blades more or start looking for a vacuum leak as well. At the end of your log the sucker is on 0 steps. I like to see them around 100 steps at hot idle on cammed cars. Helps with blms at idle.
Also my advice is that you try several of the local gas stations to find out which ones have better gas. Shell usually does pretty good for me, amaco is good also, and inconsistantly kroger is good.
Part throttle tuning is not terriby important in the scheme of things as long as you're not on the limits. It will help you control the open loop air fuel ratio better when its warming up though. When your closed loop blms are 128, what you command for open loop a/f is what you are going to get.
You should also think about resetting your blm cell boundaries. For cammed engines a good baseline is 45-60-80 for map. I use 1300-1600-2000rpm for the rpm boundaries what you need may vary but you should get the car using as many cells as possible for how you drive.
Download blm locker for wot while you're at it so you dont end up chasing your tail if you end up with blm's over 128 and the pcm adding fuel and never getting the same wot more than once with the same tune.
09-21-2008, 11:16 AM
#5
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sharpsville, PA
Posts: 387
Thanks very much for your help. I am going to be a PITA here I'm sure, but please bear with me. This is my first time doing any kind of EFI tuning, and I'm going to have a lot of simple questions I'm sure. I got a few already before I start messing with stuff.
What exactly do I need to change to correct this? I have my injector constant set at 42.31lbs/hr for my 42lb Racetronix injectors. Does the display injector flow rate also need to be changed? I was unable to find info on this in the help section of TunerCat.
I know to add timing in the main spark advance table, but I do not know in what increments to set it up. Should I just be changing the variables in the vacuum range (60-70kpa) at idle or should I be changing them all the way through 25-100kpa?
As for the knock retard, I do think that my exhaust is possibly hitting the trans crossmember, but I am at my parent's home in NC and I have almost none of my tools here, not even a jack. Just a socket set and some screwdrivers. I may be able to go to a friend's house and use his stuff though to check it out.
Down here in NC it is hard to find any medium or premium grade gas in some places right now. I will see what I can do. There is a Shell about 10 mles from here that had premium last week. Yesterday I needed gas and I was too low to go over there, so I was forced to go local and put 87 in it. I wasn't planning on driving it much though so I only put 3 gallons or less in. I always run premium, but I guess the hurricane has caused problems with fuel distribution up this way.
Like I said man I just need a little deeper instruction as to what to change and what increments to use since I am new to this. I am all for following every bit of your advice and really want to learn to tune myself. Wish I had a carb sometimes lol
Ok well your first problem is that your injectors do not match your programming. When its on 108 for the blm's that is as much fuel as it can pull. Fix that right away before you hurt something like the plugs or engine. I dont doubt you think its running rich and its way too rich at wot... because it cannot help but be.
Your second problem is that you do not have enough timing in it at idle try 28 from 400-1600, and your overspeed and underspeed spark tables are too aggressive. How can your idle be anything near stable when your timing is jumping around anywhere between 19 and 26 degrees.
As for the knock retard, I do think that my exhaust is possibly hitting the trans crossmember, but I am at my parent's home in NC and I have almost none of my tools here, not even a jack. Just a socket set and some screwdrivers. I may be able to go to a friend's house and use his stuff though to check it out.
Also my advice is that you try several of the local gas stations to find out which ones have better gas. Shell usually does pretty good for me, amaco is good also, and inconsistantly kroger is good.
Like I said man I just need a little deeper instruction as to what to change and what increments to use since I am new to this. I am all for following every bit of your advice and really want to learn to tune myself. Wish I had a carb sometimes lol
09-21-2008, 11:56 AM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Engineerland
Posts: 1,517
Thanks very much for your help. I am going to be a PITA here I'm sure, but please bear with me. This is my first time doing any kind of EFI tuning, and I'm going to have a lot of simple questions I'm sure. I got a few already before I start messing with stuff.
What exactly do I need to change to correct this? I have my injector constant set at 42.31lbs/hr for my 42lb Racetronix injectors. Does the display injector flow rate also need to be changed? I was unable to find info on this in the help section of TunerCat.
I serioiusly doubt you have them set to 42lb, maybe you forgot to change it when you went back to the stock tune? 108 BLM is equivalent to pulling 15% fuel. If your injectors flow 15% more than they are rated they need to go in the trash. All you need to do is go into constants section and change the injector value do not fool with display value.
I know to add timing in the main spark advance table, but I do not know in what increments to set it up. Should I just be changing the variables in the vacuum range (60-70kpa) at idle or should I be changing them all the way through 25-100kpa?
You add in the closed tps spark advance to fix the idle its a different table than main or extended spark advance. Set it to 28 for 400-800-1200rpm cells in that table you may have to do it for the 1600 rpm cell if you start it and it hangs way up high for a few seconds. You need to go into the idle over speed and idle underspeed advance/retard tables and zero it out for about 100 rpm around the target idle to stabilize your idle timing.
As for the knock retard, I do think that my exhaust is possibly hitting the trans crossmember, but I am at my parent's home in NC and I have almost none of my tools here, not even a jack. Just a socket set and some screwdrivers. I may be able to go to a friend's house and use his stuff though to check it out.
Down here in NC it is hard to find any medium or premium grade gas in some places right now. I will see what I can do. There is a Shell about 10 mles from here that had premium last week. Yesterday I needed gas and I was too low to go over there, so I was forced to go local and put 87 in it. I wasn't planning on driving it much though so I only put 3 gallons or less in. I always run premium, but I guess the hurricane has caused problems with fuel distribution up this way.
Dont wory about knock until you have good gas in. You will want to pull the fuse to the pcm so it has to relearn and will forget where to retard for knock when you get on good gas. It is useless to tune timing if you're going to change something like fuel. I have no doubt you cant tune out knock on 87 octane. Sorry dude but... durr comes to mind.
Like I said man I just need a little deeper instruction as to what to change and what increments to use since I am new to this. I am all for following every bit of your advice and really want to learn to tune myself. Wish I had a carb sometimes lol
What exactly do I need to change to correct this? I have my injector constant set at 42.31lbs/hr for my 42lb Racetronix injectors. Does the display injector flow rate also need to be changed? I was unable to find info on this in the help section of TunerCat.
I serioiusly doubt you have them set to 42lb, maybe you forgot to change it when you went back to the stock tune? 108 BLM is equivalent to pulling 15% fuel. If your injectors flow 15% more than they are rated they need to go in the trash. All you need to do is go into constants section and change the injector value do not fool with display value.
I know to add timing in the main spark advance table, but I do not know in what increments to set it up. Should I just be changing the variables in the vacuum range (60-70kpa) at idle or should I be changing them all the way through 25-100kpa?
You add in the closed tps spark advance to fix the idle its a different table than main or extended spark advance. Set it to 28 for 400-800-1200rpm cells in that table you may have to do it for the 1600 rpm cell if you start it and it hangs way up high for a few seconds. You need to go into the idle over speed and idle underspeed advance/retard tables and zero it out for about 100 rpm around the target idle to stabilize your idle timing.
As for the knock retard, I do think that my exhaust is possibly hitting the trans crossmember, but I am at my parent's home in NC and I have almost none of my tools here, not even a jack. Just a socket set and some screwdrivers. I may be able to go to a friend's house and use his stuff though to check it out.
Down here in NC it is hard to find any medium or premium grade gas in some places right now. I will see what I can do. There is a Shell about 10 mles from here that had premium last week. Yesterday I needed gas and I was too low to go over there, so I was forced to go local and put 87 in it. I wasn't planning on driving it much though so I only put 3 gallons or less in. I always run premium, but I guess the hurricane has caused problems with fuel distribution up this way.
Dont wory about knock until you have good gas in. You will want to pull the fuse to the pcm so it has to relearn and will forget where to retard for knock when you get on good gas. It is useless to tune timing if you're going to change something like fuel. I have no doubt you cant tune out knock on 87 octane. Sorry dude but... durr comes to mind.
Like I said man I just need a little deeper instruction as to what to change and what increments to use since I am new to this. I am all for following every bit of your advice and really want to learn to tune myself. Wish I had a carb sometimes lol
Hope that helped you out.
Dont forget to close down your tb blades a little bit.
09-21-2008, 12:09 PM
#7
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sharpsville, PA
Posts: 387
I serioiusly doubt you have them set to 42lb, maybe you forgot to change it when you went back to the stock tune? 108 BLM is equivalent to pulling 15% fuel. If your injectors flow 15% more than they are rated they need to go in the trash. All you need to do is go into constants section and change the injector value do not fool with display value.
I should have mentioned this is not a stock tune I am running on. It is a mail order tune by Bryan Herter for another setup I had, which the only difference from that one to the current one is the cam and injectors. I figured this would be a closer tuneup and require less tweaking than a stock one.
09-21-2008, 12:14 PM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Engineerland
Posts: 1,517
Are you sure your cylinder size is still set correctly then? Wasnt the old setup a 383?
You might just wanna try starting with a stock tune since this one seems to be out in left field for this engine.
You might just wanna try starting with a stock tune since this one seems to be out in left field for this engine.
09-21-2008, 12:17 PM
#10
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sharpsville, PA
Posts: 387
Are you sure your cylinder size is still set correctly then? Wasnt the old setup a 383?
You might just wanna try starting with a stock tune since this one seems to be out in left field for this engine.
You might just wanna try starting with a stock tune since this one seems to be out in left field for this engine.
09-21-2008, 12:20 PM
#11
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Engineerland
Posts: 1,517
Well I tell you what, since your combo isnt too far off of my old one, I could send that tune to you with the injectors fixed up and set for 3.42 gears. You will probably want to tweak the shifting some since i had 3.23 but you could give it a try.
That doesnt look too far off as far as closed throttle tps advance, i just had to fix mine all the same or the idle would hang for several seconds at 1500 when i started it.
That doesnt look too far off as far as closed throttle tps advance, i just had to fix mine all the same or the idle would hang for several seconds at 1500 when i started it.
09-21-2008, 12:35 PM
#12
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Engineerland
Posts: 1,517
Or you could host your current tune so I can get a look at it and see if i can find any kind of issues.
I have a really hard time thinking of something that would make it pull that much fuel besides injector or tuning problems and i'm not coming up with a whole lot.
You're 100% sure you made the change to the injectors and saved it before you uploaded the tune arent you?
I have a really hard time thinking of something that would make it pull that much fuel besides injector or tuning problems and i'm not coming up with a whole lot.
You're 100% sure you made the change to the injectors and saved it before you uploaded the tune arent you?
09-21-2008, 12:49 PM
#13
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sharpsville, PA
Posts: 387
Well I tell you what, since your combo isnt too far off of my old one, I could send that tune to you with the injectors fixed up and set for 3.42 gears. You will probably want to tweak the shifting some since i had 3.23 but you could give it a try.
That doesnt look too far off as far as closed throttle tps advance, i just had to fix mine all the same or the idle would hang for several seconds at 1500 when i started it.
That doesnt look too far off as far as closed throttle tps advance, i just had to fix mine all the same or the idle would hang for several seconds at 1500 when i started it.
Here is the bin file LPEheadsAIcambase.bin
09-21-2008, 01:02 PM
#14
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sharpsville, PA
Posts: 387
Another thing I would like to add in, because it has been on my mind for over a year now. Back in 2005 when I bought my car it was bone stock. Like 3 weeks in I put Jet Hot LT headers in. Well in my amateur mechanic days I did not tie the 02 sensor wiring for the pass side bank as well as I should have. It got burnt, shorted out, and popped the Engine Sensor fuse. I never knew why the fuse blew, I just replaced it. Later on in early 2006 when I took it to GMR Speed to be dyno tuned they found the melted wires and repaired them. I always wonder if the harness had damage farther up causing some of my problems.
With their dyno tune the car always threw a misfire code but never had a real misfire. It was false IMO. The check engine light would blink and go nuts though. The torque converter would never lock up, but would randomly at low speeds when it wasn't supposed to, like 30mph when the tuner had set it to lock at 65. It also threw an Injector Circuit Malfunction code on one occasion and started running in limp mode. I cleared the code and it didn't happen again.
Later when I did a cam swap I went to OBDI and voila, converter and trans worked perfect. Car seemed to run OK down low, but didn't pull on top end. It was also that way with my 383, and is that was now with my head/cam setup. Once I switched to OBDI, Bryan Herter did my tuning for the second heads/cam setup and the 383. I sent him datalogs so he could fine tune. Both setups were running much lower mph than other people with the same or very similar setups. This time since I already had a been file that should be close, I wanted to learn to tune on my own. But this history and these problems make me wonder if a problem lies in my engine wiring harness. I am on the verge of buying another harness, I have one lined up but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
I didn't have an AFR gauge for my previous setups, but I have one now.
Later on when
With their dyno tune the car always threw a misfire code but never had a real misfire. It was false IMO. The check engine light would blink and go nuts though. The torque converter would never lock up, but would randomly at low speeds when it wasn't supposed to, like 30mph when the tuner had set it to lock at 65. It also threw an Injector Circuit Malfunction code on one occasion and started running in limp mode. I cleared the code and it didn't happen again.
Later when I did a cam swap I went to OBDI and voila, converter and trans worked perfect. Car seemed to run OK down low, but didn't pull on top end. It was also that way with my 383, and is that was now with my head/cam setup. Once I switched to OBDI, Bryan Herter did my tuning for the second heads/cam setup and the 383. I sent him datalogs so he could fine tune. Both setups were running much lower mph than other people with the same or very similar setups. This time since I already had a been file that should be close, I wanted to learn to tune on my own. But this history and these problems make me wonder if a problem lies in my engine wiring harness. I am on the verge of buying another harness, I have one lined up but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
I didn't have an AFR gauge for my previous setups, but I have one now.
Later on when
