Well this weekend I got all my parts together, cleaned the block and put it all together, cept for valve train....
400 509casting with 4 bolt splayed caps
3.875 Scat 9000 crank
6.0 Eagle H beam 4340 Rods
4.155 Forged flattop JE pistons

11:1 Compression
220cc Pro Topline ALuminum Heads w/CNC chambers 2.02/1.6

2 1/2" butterflies in Weber Cross Ram IR Intake, converted to EFI
Electromotive TEC III

So now.....I need a cam.......Solid Roller.....I want a flat torque curve above 475 ftlbs, and peak 500 hp.......dont wnana spin past 6500, preferably 6000...thanks

Hunter

 

Normally cam recomendations are in general tech forums. Lets try this in Classic Tech, moving...

Thanks.

 

PLEASE? TTT

 

I ran your engine thru Engine Analyzer Pro, but had to make a few assumptions:

IR inside diameter is 2.5 inches? I used 8 inches length of runners.
What are the actual sizes? That would help tweak the cam choice.

Headers? primary size? exhaust system? I also used head flow from a 215 cc WeldTech Brodix T1. If I can find flow numbers on your heads, I'll rerun.

I got 500 lb. ft @ 4500 and 500 hp @ 5750. The good thing is 475 lb. ft. from about 2700 thru 5300 and hp stays flat almost to 6500. I'd use the 6000 max.

The cam was a Comp hydraulic roller: 3192 intake (224* .605 lift with 1.6's), 3196 exhaust (236* .624 lift with 1.6's) @ 110 LSA. That's relatively short duration for a 420 CI small block, but the lobes are very aggressive. Only 8* overlap @ .050. Predicted idle vacuum is over 14 in Hg.

You'd need to use the best lifters (Comp R), stiffest rockers and pushrods, so the valvetrain wouldn't be cheap.

Data! We need more data!

 

Ok, my headers are 1 3/4" primaries, bout 35 in long primaries, into 3 in x pipe into Borla XR1 Oval ShootOut Muffler. True Dual. Pipes go all the way to the back of the car.

Intake runners are about 10 inches long, but I can adjust from 5 to 16 inches for more or less torque.

The flow numbers for the heads are as follows:

Lift Int Exh
.100 70.74 60.22
.200 146.41 144.27
.300 204.72 151.72
.400 249.84 177.8
.500 264.62 183.02
.600 274.23 190.72
.700 288.08 195.24

I would like to run a solid roller as the conversion will be cheaper than the hyd rollers, but cant I just run solid roller lifters on a hyd roller cam?

Thank

Hunter

 

Thanks for the info, Hunter.

What is the inside diameter of the IR runners? Need this info to get good numbers.

Why this setup and not a single plane like a Super Vic with EFI?
It seems like a lot more work to get the IR thing right.


No, you shouldn't run solid lifters on hydraulic lobes.

If the cost difference between high end solid and hydraulic rollers is a deal breaker, I'm not sure where to go to get your torque requirements. High end hp isn't the problem; there are lots of high duration solid rollers with high lift, but we like short durations and high lift.

With the IR diameter I'll look further into it.

 

Well the butterflies are 2.5 inches in diamter.

Why not the single plane intake converted to EFI? I really think the cross ram setup looks cool, its provides me with more even cylinder temps and pressure.

Also, being able to tune the length of my runners is something that is important. I will be running this combonation on street and at the track, so when I go to the track to road race, I want almost no runner length to move power up in the rpm range.

Another factor is that hood clearance is an issue. This crossrams running are obviously crossed, allowing for more clearance that the single planes I have tried.

Any more questions just post em. Thanks in advance.

Hunter

 

Listen to Old Stroker he taught me alot.

Well in fact he taught me and lead me along the right path to building a engine that is close to what you want.

525 ft lbs @ 5000rpm
560 hp @ 6000rpm
1000 rpm nice old lady idle
Single Plane Intake, Stock Holley Carb, MSD Distributor
300cfm heads
Comp Hyd Roller
oh yeah, it's 365 cubes too!

Belive me, a high quality HR is the same price or better than a SR. For your goals it will net you more TQ than a SR just because getting good lobes for that rpm range is not going to happen. There are much better lobes for a HR for 6000rpm and below.

The HR roller set up would need

Comp 977-16 Springs, $130
Ti Retainers $134
Hi Tech Pushrods, $140
Comp Hi Tech Rocker Arms I would advise them on both a HR and SR
Pro Mag 885-16 lifters $400

And that Cam 3192/3196 110 LSA, IS A PERFECT CAM FOR WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR!

I can also cut you a price on it too. Since it's on my shelf at the shop.

Listen to Old SStroker! It will get you where you want.


Bret

 

I ran your head, exhaust and intake numbers.

It really likes 10 inch intake length throughout the range. I wouldn't advise changing the length at the races as you need to optimize the cam and intake for every change. Set it and forget it.

Computer predicts over 475 lb. ft. from 2500 to 6000 with peak over 550 @ 4750 and over 550 hp @ 5750. Predicted idle vacuum about 15 in. hg. Very little lope at idle. That good enough?

You'll need a total of 86 cc's of clearance volume to maintain only 11:1. That's the total of combustion chamber volume, head gasket volume, valve reliefs in the pistons and volume above the piston to top of block at TDC. I think that'll be about zero to .005 in the hole, which will be good for squish. Make sure valve reliefs are big enough.

Good luck, Hunter.

 

Well thanks to everyone who helped me out, I really like those numbers, and I just bought Desktop Dyno2000 today so I will run my combo and see what it comes up with.

10 inch intake runners sound good to me, I have them at 12 inches so I will get out the cut off wheel and make them 10.

Well you have convinced me to use the HR over the SR. I can see that getting high lift on lower duration is easier that way, and over 475 ft lbs from 2500-6000 rpm!! 3500 rpms of that brutal torque, I will need to be getting some good traction!

Now the only question I have left is, I will be running 92 octane, and with little duration, will cylinder pressures be causing me to be on the ragged edge of detonation? Since the heads are aluminum, and the nature of IR setup to even out hot spots, I would hope not, but I also do not want to be knocking my pistons all over the place.

I really like the 15 inches of vacum, I want this engine to be non lopey, for sleeper purposes, and for the cops round here, since they do not like loud cars.

The 86 cc's won't be a problem, I am planning on getting custom JE pistons, and I can fine tune with gaskets if need be.

Now for the rest of the valve train, I think I am going to have 1.550" springs, do the COMP 977 springs, as SStroker Ace mentioned, come in this diameter? Also, is is absolutly a must to run titanium valve retainters? I will if its crucial, but if not I'd like not to.

Could you email me the dyno graph and table from your program? I would like to compare it to what I get on DD2000.

Once again, thanks!!

Hunter

 

Detonation: Calculated dynamic compression is about 8:1, which isn't bad. You might want to tailor your advance curve to not bring in too much advance too early. Best chance for detonation is at low rpm and wide open throttle. I suspect traction will be your biggest problem, as you said, so I doubt you will be able to make it grunt it's full 475+ @ 2500, unless you try that in the higher gears.

SStrokerAce's 365 was a dyno competition engine. It had 11.75:1, 91/92 octane pump gas. It rattled a tad under full load in the 2500-3000 range and sometimes for a second or so around torque peak. Remember though, that he had timing cranked up for max torque/power numbers, and knock-retard system wasn't legal.

I think your 11:1 will work well. I'd run Sunoco 94 if you can get it. Also, if your ignition is controlled by the computer and has a knock sensor you'll be fine.

977 springs are 1.46 OD. The entire Comp catalog is online. Go to www.compcams.com click 'online catalog" then click "PDF Version Here".

Titanium retainers were recommended because every gram you get off the moving parts helps the springs keep things working together. The other point is strength (actually stiffness) of the parts. If you don't use the BEST/Stiffest rocker arms and pushrods, the very aggressive lobe profiles will either deflect the parts, or result in valve toss at higher rpm. To make this cam work (and it does work!), you have to use the whole magilla; you can't cheap-out on rockers, pushrods, springs, etc. I'm not shilling for Comp; there is no free lunch. If you want the results, ya' gotta pay the price.

If you read much of Rich Krause's posts (Advanced Tech usually), you notice he likes these lobes a lot. He's one fast (and savvy) sawbones!

Nothing against DD, but it isn't quite as sophisticated as what I ran your engine on. I'll see what i can do about emailing you the results.

 

Ok well I called comp cams yesterday, and I was talking to a sales rep of theirs. He said that the retro fit hyd. roller lifters are out of stock for a long time, and premium prices are being paid for the ones that are left over, like 400-500 a set.

I really dont want to pay that price for them.

Could I just use the same specs from the cam we talked about before? 224/236 @.05" .602/.614" of lift instead of a hyd roller cam, just have them make it a solid roller cam and use the cheaper and more abundant solid rollers?

I wil have to run some stiff springs, but that is alright with me. Would this idea change my power any?

Thanks,

Hunter

 

Hey,

I know you and my father are talking in more detail about this.

I would wait out the hydro rollers, they are worth it in not having to set lash and the lobes are there already.

The lifters are $400 a set but that is not really that bad considering that they give you the advantages of hyd cams and roller cams in the end.

Make sure you use every part to his specs, if not it will cost alot of money to fix it in the end.

Bret