I'm pretty much a car newbie, and I'm trying to find the perfect car for me. As I'm browsing the ads, most of the first generation camaro's I see are automatics.

Is it still possible to race an automatic? What kind of parts are needed? Can an automatic be converted to a manual? What would be involved in the conversion? Can an automatic be driven with a special shifter to allow fast manual 3-speed shifting?

I'm sure it's a very simple question, but I have limited knowledge at this point.

Thanks in advance
--carnub

 

For autocross style racing, a manual transmission is best. For drag racing, an automatic transmission, with a shift kit and appropriate torque converter will result in more consistant results, which is desireable in this type of racing. An automatic transmission can be shifted manually to ensure optimum shift points. A quick, firm shift is made possible by the addition of a 'shift kit'.

If your preference is for a manual transmission, the conversion can be done, but I expect it would be expensive to pay someone to do it for you. If you do get an automatic and one day decide you'd rather have a manual, maybe you'll have garnered enough mechanical expertise to perform the swap yourself

My car is an automatic, and I prefer it that way. I run 12.9's very consistantly.

 

When you race your car, how do you 'do' it? I know on a normal car (not for racing), people "torque brake" or "neutral drop", both of which are supposed to be pretty bad for the car. Is there a safe method you use so that you don't hurt anything? Or are you just flooring it when the light turns green?

If I get an automatic, it'll have to be for both street and track, if that makes any difference.

Thanks again, very informative
--carnub

 

well, you can "flash stall" or "brake stall" on an auto
brake stall, means you hold the brake til the tires are about to break loose (say you got a 2000 stall torque converter, well, it would start to slip the tires at about 2000 rpms), then when the light goes green or whatever, let off the brake and hit the gas (might need a little practice considering this will probably roast the tires depending on your stall, gears, etc.)
flash stall just means you hit the pedal to the metal when the light goes green (also can probably cause a nice burnout)
i have an auto and i if i had to do it again, i'd get a manual car (which i probably will buy a z28 with a manual, and if it has an auto, i'll swap in a manual)
it just seems a little boring on the street when it's just "gas, brake", but sometimes it's nice to not have to shift like a manual, all personal preference i guess
and yes, if you're doing street/strip, at the strip it's always better to have a built auto because there's no chance for missed shifts, and if it has a shift kit, it will shift nice and firm
i know that was long, but i hope it helps man
good luck

 

First thing, VERY important:

NEVER DO A NEUTRAL DROP!!! A "neutral drop" is done with an automatic, by revving the engine while in neutral, then slamming the shifter into gear with your foot still on the gas. You will feel a big "bang" (or "clunk") and the car sorta jerks, and you're lucky if the tranny doesn't basically say "screw you, I'm outta here!". You might get away with it once, but the transmission WILL get damaged.

A "brake torque" isn't so bad for your car (well, on occasion anyway!). They're hard to do with a standard tranny, but easy with an auto. Basically, hold the brake, and with the car in gear, start giving it gas while you still hold the brake. The back wheels will start to spin, even though you're not moving anywhere 'cause the front brakes are still holding you. Eventually the tires will create a big cloud of smoke, and you've now just done a successful burn-out to impress all your friends! HOWEVER, repeated brake-torques, or burn-outs aren't the best thing for your car, because they put excessive load on pretty much EVERYTHING: engine, tranny, gears, REAR BRAKES, and most notably, tires.

How do you "race"? On the street or at the dragstrip?

Street: (wait for green light)

• (auto) nail the accelerator to the floor
• (standard) start giving the car gas before green light, and when you get the green, put the accelerator to the floor and let out quickly but smootly on the clutch

Track: (get ready when yellow lights start to drop)

• (auto) hit the gas on the 2nd last, or the last yellow light (yes, before the green light)
• (standard) start bringing revs up once you're staged, then start letting the clutch out on the 2nd last yellow and put the gas to the floor at about the same time (again, before the green light)

It sounds to me like you're interested in drag racing, and not auto-X type racing, so that being said (and the fact that you sound *maybe* a little younger?) I'd say get a car with an automatic. That way, you will be WAY more consistent when you race at the track (which I highly recommend over street racing, which is just not worth the risks) and if you drive in any kind of heavy traffic, driving a standard becomes a nuisance sometimes.

Is there anything special you need to do to your auto tranny to race it? No. However, as Erik pointed out, most guys will install a shift kit to make each shift "firmer" and "quicker". Also, don't let anyone try to convince you that standards are WAY faster than autos..........it's just not the case. Only with VERY GOOD drivers do standards get a slight advantage when they're raced, and only between 2 identical cars (except auto vs standard) would you ever really know that there's a difference.

To keep this in "Classic Tech" though, are you interested in an older Camaro or Firebird? I can tell you that I had an '81 Z28 when I was 17 - 18, and I loved having that car. I got stupid though and sold it, and I've kicked my a$$ ever since ('til I got the '02 Z28 last year). The older F-bodies can be bought and modified pretty cheap, and if they're built right, they're damn fast.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope I've helped you out a little!

 

I love stick shifts... always have. Except all my Camaros have been automatics, even though I was looking for manual transmission cars when I bought them. (Go figure. ) Seems that having a Camaro is more important than anything else.

Here's the thing. If your looking for 1st gen Camaros. With exception of the SS 396, Chevrolet used the 2 speed Powerglide as the automatic of choice in 1967. That's right, a 2 speed automatic. However, powerglides have long been used as drag racing transmissions especially when built up. Both my 1st gen Camaros have had powerglides... and I've never had any problems or complaints with them what so ever.

If you have your heart set on a manual, then look for a manual car. Yes automatics can be converted over, however its much easier to start with a manual car, mainly because everything is there, and even if its a 3 speed manual, all the major dimensions for a 4 speed or even a newer 4+1 are the same, making the upgrade a much easier proposition.

Still a 1st gen Camaro is a 1st gen Camaro. Whether its an auto or manual doesn't make much of a difference in my opinion.

 

Wow this forum is filled with so much information.

To try to respond to some of that:

unvc: When brake stalling or flash stalling, how can you tell how much is too much? It seems like if you ever went "oops, stalled that one a little too long", you might need a whole new transmission.

Pete: That answered just about everything. And you pretty much nailed my age with the 17-18. I'm definitely interested in drag racing, but I guess all people my age are. (I'd like to burn some major import *** The racing thing makes a bit more sense to me now. I still find it kind of odd that "neutral drop" is such a well known term for something that no one should ever do. And I'm really interested in the first generation camaro's, nothing in the world looks sweeter to me than the late 60's chevy bodies. Particularly the kind where you can see the headlights clearly, like on the 68's and 69 Z28's, it's just such a sexy look. I haven't really looked at early firebirds, something about chevy appeals to me, but I guess it's all the same GM parts. Is one of those shift kits used for the auto transmission shifting itself? or just if you want to manually shift up the gears? Oh, and nice use of animated smileys, I appreciate the long reply, very useful.

jg95z28: I do think I would like to have a stick for general driving, just as a play-thing But it's good to know you haven't had any problems with your automatics. If I was to get a manual, is the idea to have more or less gears? It seems like 3 gears isn't enough, but 4/5/6 are all pretty common. If I did find a manual, possibly rebuilt or modded or something, what's the ideal setup?

Thanks to all again, this forum rocks
--carnub

 

For drag racing a big bonus for an automatic is the torque multiplication that a good converter gives.

 

Just as a suggestion, since you're just starting out, I'd go with an automatic. I've seen 300+ RWHP SS's going 15.2's all day long because the driver didn't know that spinning your tires half way down the track makes you SLOWER. Autos are much easier to control.

However, DO NOT get a Powerglide. That's the worst idea ever. Oh, and 1st gen SS's with the 350 also came with TH350's. Anyway, as I'm sure you know, the lower gear you're in, the faster you accelerate. This is because of mechanical leverage provided by the steeper gear. A typical Powerglide 1st gear is anywhere from 1.78-2.20. A TH350 has a 1st gear of around 2.76 (I don't remember exact numbers) 2nd gear is around 1.78, and 3rd gear is 1:1. That deeper 1st gear gives you better acceleration. Now, rear end gears also play a huge factor in acceleration. If you multiply the Powerglide's 1st gear ratio by your rearend ratio (we'll use 3.73's, and 1.78 for 1st gear), you get a 6.64:1 overall drive ratio in 1st. With a TH350, the first gear of 2.76 times the rearend ratio of 3.73 gives you a 10.29 final drive ratio. Obviously, that 10.29 offers MUCH more mechanical leverage. To achieve that same leverage with a powerglide, you'd have to use a rearend ratio of 5.78. Your car's top speed would be about 60 mph and you'd get 0.5 mpg. So basically what I'm saying is go with an automatic TH 350 (or even better, a 700-r4. Gives you a super deep 3.07 1st gear, and has a .70 overdrive gear, so you can use a fairly low rearend, like a 3.55, and still get good gas mileage on the interstate).

As far as manuals go, personally, if you're not into all out racing and weight isn't a concern, I say the more the better. The Richmond 5 speed has 5th gear as a 1:1 gear (same as 3rd gear on a TH350) so that gives you a closer spacing of gears, allowing you to stay within your peak power range better. The 6-speed offers an overdrive 6th gear. The T56 (the 6-speed in the new Camaros, Corvettes, and Vipers) have a DOUBLE overdrive, 5th and 6th gears. That way you can put a killer rearend ratio (like 4.33's or even higher) and still get good gas mileage. Also, the taller the 1st gear ratio in your transmission, the more power it can handle without breaking.

If that was over your head, sorry. If not, great! Basically, try to find an automatic (3 or 4 speed, NOT a powerglide. Powerglides are great for 1500 hp motors that don't need a ton of gearing, but other than that, you don't want one). Get a 2400 RPM stall convertor for it (that will allow the engine to rev to 2400 RPM before the stall convertor really starts to "hook up." This allows you to leave the starting line at a higher power level). Kick some ***.

 

You want to put money on that? j/k the TH350 didn't come out until very late 1968 (offered first as an RPO in 1969). All the early SS350 automatics (all of 1967 and most of 68) were powerglides. The SS396 autos got the TH400.

Oh and another thing. The 67-8 non posi 10-bolts on the "Plain Jane" powerglide and 3 spd manual cars, came with the 2.73 gears. However, if you ordered the RS option, (RPO Z22), that also included an upgrade to the 3.08 non-posi rear... even with the lowly 327-210HP. (One of the reasons I love RS's so much. )

If you're building a streetable cruiser with a 327-355 c.i.d. sbc, the 3.08 10-bolt should be ample, plus you'll still get decent gas mileage. Move up to the 3.73 or 4.11 and you'll probably want to go with at least a 5-spd (or Richmond 4+1), or some kind of overdrive set-up to handle the taller gears. Anything bigger than that really isn't streetable (although it is possible) and should only considered if you plan on taking it to the track often.

My 68 RS was a daily driver and saw a lot of highway miles. The powerglide and 3.08 rear lived through two motors while I owned it. I only changed the tranny fluid and filter once. Sure unless you go with real tall gears and an all out race set-up, the powerglide isn't going to give you the best performance, however it is streetable and a strong powerglide should be able to handle at least 350-400 HP... which is more than you'll need for a streetable sbc running on pump gas.

 

Thats an awuful lot of spinning, but there are people out there that think smoking tires means your car is fast. I'm guessing my 00 SS runs about 300 RWHP since most LS1s do stock. Even with spinning as bad as I do I still turn 13's.

 

to answer your question before..
brake stalling, you'll know when your tires are slipping and you just hit the gas, not too hard, and it doesnt a significant amount of rearend damage (basically, does nothing really but don't do it a lot because it adds up over time)
flash stalling, thats just flooring from a stop and doesnt do any rearend damage
so now we know that these wont "blow up" your tranny if you do them...
so basically, if you do it the wrong way, or smoke the tires really bad, then you're basically burnin the tires and that's it, so you just have to practice to not do that (some like to call it "feathering the throttle"), in simple terms, just learn how your car reacts to how much throttle you give it, you get used to it after awhile

o, and replying to the other posts..
what's so bad about the powerglide? i know dragsters use them a lot because you only shift once anyways
the only downsides i can see is that the first gears ratio sucks and your gas mileage will be absolutely terrible (only 2 gears you know)- hence i wouldnt like it for the street too much
but who cares, old camaros guzzle gas anyways