Sweet!

 

Let me tell you the story of my late, hardly lamented '94 Grand Prix:

My dad bought this is '96 with 30K on it. A/C lasted 6 months and never worked again (side note his '90 GP had it's A/C/ konk out at 80K some odd and my sis's '98 GA had no air after 70K). By 60K it leaked a quart of oil per 3 month oil change (like pool of black on the ground leak), by the time I bought it off him it was diagnosted as a bad head gasket which in the winter lost a quart every three weeks and a quart a month in the summer. By 100K both passenger window motors retired (gracefully in the up position). At 120K something 'substantial' went wrong either internally inthe engine or tranny, retireing it from x-country duty. If this was my primary vehcile I would've sold it fast and gone shopping elsewhere.

Now, while that POS nor my '83 Cavalier [shudder] isn't singularly indictive of GM quality, in cars I've driven and ridden in my perception is GM small and midsize cars just do not age that gracefully compared to others. Yes they'll make it longer, but by that time you're not owning it for any sense of pride, it just gets you there. For the longest time they were just stinkers when new. Seems Detroit took forever to realize the world wasn't palying by it's rules anymore, and now alot of people just don't care. Quite frankly, I'm starting not to anymore. I'm tired of watching everyone else come out with bold new designs while detroit simply follows.

 

Let me tell you a tale of my father's late, dearly-missed '95 GTP Grand Prix sedan...

127k miles...one set of brakes...one set of tires...one intake gasket replaced under warranty...original battery...original radiator hoses...original everything else...just that one warranty claim in 8 years and 127k miles...

What a bucket I used to own a '95 Grand Am SE coupe with a 3100...I took it on trade in 2001 at my old Pontiac dealership, from the original owner. I sold it with 121k miles on it in 2002...I bought it with 109k. She said she did NOTHING to it, as you could see by the coolant that sludged up in the head and popped a head gasket...hence why she traded it in. I replaced the head gasket, put 2 wheel bearings in it, replaced a window regulator, and uhm, uh...yeah, that was it.

The girl who bought it from me just traded it back into me at the Chrysler dealership about 2 weeks ago...it now has 181k. The intake gasket leaks a little bit now, and the steering rack leaks a little too. It still winds right out to 5,500 RPM between shifts with nary a whimper, the 4T60 bangs off shifts at WOT that are as smooth as when I had it (aka not even perceptible at part throttle), and it feels tight. No odd clunks or rattles.

Yeah, that car sucks too I've thought about buying it back for the $600 I ACV'd it for just to see how long I can run it before it dies...but I don't need another car for no reason!

 

Your point exactly? That your two 'stellar' examples might prove, at least to the unquestioning flag wavers, that GM cars age better than my 1 horrid affiar and two questionable quality tales? If that was it, you should read my entire post.

 

roflmao

An import nuthugger i work with had a 92 accord with iirc somewhere around 150k miles on it, he picked it up cheap because he wanted to give his current car to his mother (long story). Anyhow, he proceeded to dump a bunch of money getting the CV joints replaced and the brakes redone. Then he spent a good handful more money getting the AC system repaired and refilled because he was sick of sitting in DC traffic in the summer without it. Despite him doing his best to sink money into gettiong it fixed up (also got a tune up), it was still a raging POS. It shook so bad at idle that the whole car doubled as a massage chair. In fact, he used to have toput it in neutral at red lights a lot of times because it would really rattle your fillings out otherwise. The tune up didn't even help this. Then there was the fact that it felt like it had no suspension whatsoever. He eventually got rid of it, probably because it really put a damper on his import nuthugging diatribes when all i had to do was remind him that his import was exactly the kind of POS that turned me off of them .

Then there's a few years ago i had a 87 toyota corrolla that a friend from college gave me for free. It was his wife's old car and he had since got her a new car. Car also had somehwere in the 150-170k mile range. I ended up getting rid of it because there was no way it would pass emmisions, every hose and silly as vacuum canister under the hood was rusty, broken, cracked, etc. It also leaked every fluid it had and had a bad rim that would not hold air even after i had teh tire replaced and then had teh tire guy look at it where he found some small seam that was bad in the steel wheel.

OTOH, my dad's last chevy van went to 250k miles with only a trans rebuild at 180k and a carb replaced at 220k miles. My mom is still driving an 83 grand prix that they bought for me when my camaro was stolen my last year of college. It had 130k+ miles on it when i had it in 2000 and ran great, started on the first turn of the key (with a carb), got 18mpg on the highway (not bad for no OD) and still rode pretty well. Now true i did a tune up and turned a few screws on teh carb, but other than that despite obviously living a hard life before i got it, it held up well. Certainly in far better shape than the 87 corrolla and 92 accord i already mentioned.

So basically, i just don't see it. Maybe in your world people drive imports forever and never have any problems, but in my experience, guys with imports take their car to the shop as much as anybody else. Like the guy in my office that boutgh a brand new 01 accord when he started working. I bought a used 01 alero a year and a half later with 36k miles on it, and an ex-rental car at that. In the 2 years i owned that alero, i only changed oil. During that same time, my officemates 01 accord when in for an ABS error, a check engine light (that was not something as simple as a gas cap) and something else that i forget. Another guy has an 04 accord and already had a CV shaft done under warranty. My GTO has almost 30k miles on it itself, only problem it had was a dead door lock solenoid.

I could go on all day. Like the former director of enginering on my site who's lexus es330 died on the highway from the infamous toyota engine sludge problem. Despite the car dieing on the side of a major highway in traffic, the dumb bastard actually went and bought a new lexus. actually, i heard he got a great deal on it because lexus was so embarassed by eth esludge problem, but still. If cadillacs were dying on the side of the road from an inherently flawed engine design i'm sure we'd never hear the end of it.

IMO, there are good and bad examples from all makers. And i disagree with any notion that imports last longer / better than domestics based on my personal experiences with domestics that have held up just fine in extreme service and miles and the fact that i have never seen an import that held up better at the same year / mileage.

How many times have *YOU* made it to 200k miles in an import threxx? Just curious since your sig seems to always be dominated by late model vehicles. I sure don't see many 10yo imports, but why not if they hold up so well?

 

I did read your post, and don't feel the need to read it again, thank you...

You had a crappy story, and I told my good story...so what? "Flag waving" aside, there's a lot of people who have had EXCELLENT luck with GM cars, and are repeat purchasers time after time...

So in summary, what's YOUR point? That they don't age gracefully, as you put it...right? My point is many of them DO.

Who needs to re-read, you or me??

 

To be fair, that is really an OLD edict -- I heard something similar 20 years ago.

I think the idea was that GM built a invincible engine/transmission, but everything else would fall apart.

 

Dude... did you just skim my post or actually read it? My argument is not that the import cars necessarily last any longer in terms of "how many miles did it go before it cost you more in repairs than it was worth". In fact I specifically said the a LOT of domestic cars (GMs, especially, it seems) last just as long or longer depending on the two models in question.

My point, if you read, was that even if both cars are still running at 200k miles (just for example), the Honda or Toyota will more likely still FEEL and DRIVE like a well built machine. There's a difference between making it from point A to point B without breaking down or getting killed, and getting there in a car that is perceived to still be holding up well.

Give somebody a 3800 series motor Pontiac that made it to 300k miles before it died but always seemed like it was hanging on by a thread because the dash is cracked in half, stereo stopped working, two door panels have fallen off and it leaks in mildly rainy weather. Then give them a Honda that only made it to 200k miles before it died but still drove like a well built well oiled machine until the day it kicked the bucket. While they certainly got more use out of the 300k mile car, I'm sure they felt a lot more hatred for it. It's easy to hate a car no matter how long it drives for. I bet you'd hate to be stuck with a Yugo as your only vehicle no matter how little it broke down. I bet you'd curse the day you had to start driving it because it'd be miserable to drive because it'd drive like a bucket of bolts.

And of course you guys can give all of the individual experiences you've encountered. I've encountered plenty of mine own. I'm just basing this on my observations from what I hear from the average joe.

I'll hear one guy say his Honda Civic made it to 200k miles and be elated about it and want to buy another Honda because the car was nice while it lasted. Then I'll hear another guy saying his POS Chevy Blazer actually 'hung on there" until 200k miles but then start talking about how miserable it was to put up with all of the things that were broken and not acting right for the 100k miles.

It's like they say with diesel trucks sometimes - sure the motor will run forever... but how about the rest of the truck?

 

I'm not renewing my C&D after almost 10 years.

 

I would 100% disagree with that. My GF has a 1998 Civic with ~130K that is one of the most rattly tin cans I have ever driven. I also have a friend that sent there 1991 Accord to the junk yard after 112,000 because it wasn't worth saving (this was in 2001). In contrast my brothers 1999 Grand Prix with 140K still runs strong and looks good inside and out. I'd replace the shocks because it doesn't ride as smooth as it did a few years ago but other than that the car is great.

Every 200,000mi+ car I've ever seen is an American, and I've seen a lot of them. 200,000mi. Japaneses cars seem to be like unicorns in upstate NY

 

Every marque these days has examples that perform extremely well, and others that are piles of crap. I have my own GM examples...other people have had GMs that were garbage. Conversely, many swear by Accords, and yet my ONLY two friends who have/had Accords will never buy another. The one who has one now has a 4 cyl '97 LX 4 door...the radiator exploded in 2003 at 75k (I've NEVER seen this in a GM car), the exhaust has already rotted off twice (gotta love GM stainless), and now with 118k the rear main seal blew, and the engine is toast. The other friend who had one had a '95 EX 4 door that with about 70k on it in '99 also lost its rear main seal, but thankfully he pulled it over and shut it off the second the oil light came on. If a 4 year old, 70k GM car nearly blew its engine, it'd be deemed a complete lemon. After 4 more years of it, with about 150k on it he junked it after it nickled and dimed him to death. If you go on Accord forums, they're full of people having rear main issues in 4 cylinder Accords...but hey, they're bulletproof, right???

I guess it depends on your perspective...

For me personally, my '91, throughout the restoration, has surprised me. For 16 years old and 111k miles, its surprisingly original. Original starter, alternator, and a bunch of other parts. Everything works great, save for a few dash lights that are burned out. I have all the service records on it, and other than maintenance items, a water pump and a radiator, its 16 years have been relatively perfect. The HVAC fan motor just burned out on me, which is the one non-maintenance item I've replaced in the 5k miles I've driven it since May. Its surprisingly original for 16 years old...and the 305 still pulls as smooth and SLOW as it did from day one It burns no oil, and returns an honest 25 MPG at a 75 MPH cruise with the A/C on. The T-5 tranny shifts perfect (a little balky getting it into R sometimes, but that's it), the rear end is quiet, and all is well. Sure, it has a few trim and t-top rattles in it, but it is 16 years old...

I bought my girlfriend's and my Grand Prix based on all the high mileage GPs I used to take in on trade. I've seen/driven a '94 SSEi Bonneville with 276k...a '97 GTP with 214k. Sure, they rode pretty stiff because the struts were original...but they were hardly what I'd call death traps.

I look forward to seeing how our GP ages. Were it not for having a demo, my 67k mile '01 GP GT Coupe was going to be run by me for many more years to come...it drove like new, as expected. If I can keep away the itch to not trade it for an '07 GXP in a few more years, I imagine we'll have it for well over 150k miles...we both love it, and I have a strong feeling it will not nickle and dime us to death at all.

Again, I guess it depends on your perspective...but the original post, IMO, proves without a doubt the media bias that at least C&D offers up...

 

My current winter beater is a 1978 Malibu Classic ... it's got about ~100k original miles on it (305, 2 bbl, 3-speed "metric" tranny ), the body is mint, it runs like a charm, starts good, drives good, feels damn solid, no squeaks or rattles .....

..... ahhh, they just don't build 'em like they used to!!!

The magazines can pretty much go **** (you know ) themselves!!

 

The plural of ancedote is not data. And what we have here is dueling anecdotes.

(But I gotta tell you guys about my Accord ran like a dream for 290K miles until it got run over by a garbage truck! )

AFAIK, the JD Power survey is aimed mainly towards the lease industry, so I'm not sure if there is any real good data for cars with over 100K miles.

 

any brand car will last a long time if you take care of it right if you dont it will fall apart /thread

 

Concerning this thread and another about consumer perseption, consider this...

C&D had a cover in 1978(?) with the Citation on the front proclaiming it was the car "that would blow the competition into the weeds", and again in '89
(?) about the Beretta GT and it "looking great and import bashing".

You build enough crap for long enough......