Yeah...there's no media bias here...
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
From: manassas, VA
Dude... did you just skim my post or actually read it? My argument is not that the import cars necessarily last any longer in terms of "how many miles did it go before it cost you more in repairs than it was worth". In fact I specifically said the a LOT of domestic cars (GMs, especially, it seems) last just as long or longer depending on the two models in question.
My point, if you read, was that even if both cars are still running at 200k miles (just for example), the Honda or Toyota will more likely still FEEL and DRIVE like a well built machine. There's a difference between making it from point A to point B without breaking down or getting killed, and getting there in a car that is perceived to still be holding up well.
Give somebody a 3800 series motor Pontiac that made it to 300k miles before it died but always seemed like it was hanging on by a thread because the dash is cracked in half, stereo stopped working, two door panels have fallen off and it leaks in mildly rainy weather. Then give them a Honda that only made it to 200k miles before it died but still drove like a well built well oiled machine until the day it kicked the bucket. While they certainly got more use out of the 300k mile car, I'm sure they felt a lot more hatred for it. It's easy to hate a car no matter how long it drives for. I bet you'd hate to be stuck with a Yugo as your only vehicle no matter how little it broke down. I bet you'd curse the day you had to start driving it because it'd be miserable to drive because it'd drive like a bucket of bolts.
And of course you guys can give all of the individual experiences you've encountered. I've encountered plenty of mine own. I'm just basing this on my observations from what I hear from the average joe.
I'll hear one guy say his Honda Civic made it to 200k miles and be elated about it and want to buy another Honda because the car was nice while it lasted. Then I'll hear another guy saying his POS Chevy Blazer actually 'hung on there" until 200k miles but then start talking about how miserable it was to put up with all of the things that were broken and not acting right for the 100k miles.
It's like they say with diesel trucks sometimes - sure the motor will run forever... but how about the rest of the truck?
My point, if you read, was that even if both cars are still running at 200k miles (just for example), the Honda or Toyota will more likely still FEEL and DRIVE like a well built machine. There's a difference between making it from point A to point B without breaking down or getting killed, and getting there in a car that is perceived to still be holding up well.
Give somebody a 3800 series motor Pontiac that made it to 300k miles before it died but always seemed like it was hanging on by a thread because the dash is cracked in half, stereo stopped working, two door panels have fallen off and it leaks in mildly rainy weather. Then give them a Honda that only made it to 200k miles before it died but still drove like a well built well oiled machine until the day it kicked the bucket. While they certainly got more use out of the 300k mile car, I'm sure they felt a lot more hatred for it. It's easy to hate a car no matter how long it drives for. I bet you'd hate to be stuck with a Yugo as your only vehicle no matter how little it broke down. I bet you'd curse the day you had to start driving it because it'd be miserable to drive because it'd drive like a bucket of bolts.
And of course you guys can give all of the individual experiences you've encountered. I've encountered plenty of mine own. I'm just basing this on my observations from what I hear from the average joe.
I'll hear one guy say his Honda Civic made it to 200k miles and be elated about it and want to buy another Honda because the car was nice while it lasted. Then I'll hear another guy saying his POS Chevy Blazer actually 'hung on there" until 200k miles but then start talking about how miserable it was to put up with all of the things that were broken and not acting right for the 100k miles.
It's like they say with diesel trucks sometimes - sure the motor will run forever... but how about the rest of the truck?
And that's all there is to it. I canot cede that imports hold up better than domestics because i simply have never seen an example.
As for your little anecdote of the attitude difference of a domestic "holding on" vs. an import owner being elated about it, i'll relate again the story of the guy with the 92 accord at work who put way more money into fixing the car than he paid for it and how he will still argue abotu how much better imports are. You see, attitude is purely subjective, and since people's attitudes are shaped both internally (what they experience as well as less tangible factors such as they want to feel like they made the right choice) and externally (all they read in the media is how bad domestics are, it's cool to conform, etc), and that's what you hear. Psychology and markleting don't create facts The entire point of this thread is that there is a high level of media bias feeding the perception that domestics are bad. Countering that it's not perception, with an example of second hand perception doesn't cu it. Show me pictures of all these 200k mile hondas in awesome shape. They're so common, autotrader must be littered with 'em
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
You know what I love about the motoring scribes? Apart from relying mainly on glossy brochures, subjective opinon and kickbacks to arrive at an opinon, they have relatively poor technical knowledge. Given a car is an technical marvel, the C&D and MTs of this world would know little about how exciting, economical and fun it is to live with a modern GM V8. Some of us car nuts actually love playing with our cars and make them perform better than stock. That's why I love publications like Hot Rod etc... they have no BS articles - it's all about what works and what doesn't - very little content is subjective. Talk to the scribes from C&D and MT about tuning PCMs, watch most of them run and hide.
As for the British publications, well they still believe they have a car industry in the UK, albeit one that's owned in the main by Ford/GM. Anything Jaguar is revered, the rest doesn't cut it... Nuff said!
As for the British publications, well they still believe they have a car industry in the UK, albeit one that's owned in the main by Ford/GM. Anything Jaguar is revered, the rest doesn't cut it... Nuff said!
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 561
From: Ventura County, CA
Top Gear's extreme bias toward European cars and against American cars just about drives me up the wall. I mean they go beyond bias and enter the realm of deceit if that's what it takes to make a Euro car look good next to an American car. Granted, they don't always have to do that - but when they do I want to scream at the screen... and I'm sure the guys in Europe are just eating that crap right on up, along with a lot of people here.
If it's possible to exaggerate any more dramatically or frequently than Clarkson does on that show - I'd like to see how.
If it's possible to exaggerate any more dramatically or frequently than Clarkson does on that show - I'd like to see how.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,030
From: Frankfort, KY U.S.A.
Big Surprise here!
Also in the same issue the Honda Accord wins the 4-door sedan comparo test again, even though it was the oldest car in the group. The Saturn Aura came in 4th if I remember correctly, it could have been 5th place though. I don't have the issue in front of me I just flipped through it at a book store. There were a lot of cars in the test. The new Chrysler Sebring got last place.
They called the Aura interior full of cheap plastics
So what does the bland a** Accord interior have expensive plastics?......yeah right
I gave up on these magazines a couple of years ago, but last year I got a year subscription to CD for Christmas which ran out last month.
Also in the same issue the Honda Accord wins the 4-door sedan comparo test again, even though it was the oldest car in the group. The Saturn Aura came in 4th if I remember correctly, it could have been 5th place though. I don't have the issue in front of me I just flipped through it at a book store. There were a lot of cars in the test. The new Chrysler Sebring got last place.
They called the Aura interior full of cheap plastics
So what does the bland a** Accord interior have expensive plastics?......yeah rightI gave up on these magazines a couple of years ago, but last year I got a year subscription to CD for Christmas which ran out last month.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,400
From: Michigan's left coast
I just let my C&D subscription lapse for the first time in nearly a decade, but that has more to do with their terrible new layout and what I perceive as a loss of the old editorial "feel" than it does with any nagging concerns about "bias". Frankly, for new car news, I think that's best served by the medium of the web (but, er, I may be slightly biased
). And I'm also in complete agreement with ProudPony that Hot Rod really has it going on in the past two years. With the redesign, that mag seems to have woken up and is producing consistantly great content. It's about the only mag that I truly wait for each month.
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Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 4,320
From: Memphis
http://www.google.com/search?q=defin...ient=firefox-a
And he called ALL of the stories anecdotes. That's not a derogatory or dismissive term like you seem to think it is. It's simply what a single story is - it's not research data, it's a single incident. It's an anecdote.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 664
From: Hanford, CA, USA
My brother gets MT C&D and R&T... he basically got the subscriptions from my grandfather who just sent them to us, singed us up for 2 years and paid it, and he gets like $10 for a year when it comes up. I flip through very rarely, I do think some of the R&T stuff is pretty good, the road tests are alright.
I agree on Top Gear. I love a show that they drive the hell out of cars, no matter what it is. Bias aside, I hated it the first few times I saw it, Accent pissed me off. But I watched a few more times, saw them running the hell out of a Jag on the N-ring, and things like that. Pretty cool.
I agree on Top Gear. I love a show that they drive the hell out of cars, no matter what it is. Bias aside, I hated it the first few times I saw it, Accent pissed me off. But I watched a few more times, saw them running the hell out of a Jag on the N-ring, and things like that. Pretty cool.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
From: New England
what magazine did the "bring it here" article and I remeber they said that the Astra would be a good fit here and actually compete...now that its here its just the same POS American companies have been putting out???
HOW???
HOW???
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
My current winter beater is a 1978 Malibu Classic ... it's got about ~100k original miles on it (305, 2 bbl, 3-speed "metric" tranny 
), the body is mint, it runs like a charm, starts good, drives good, feels damn solid, no squeaks or rattles .....
..... ahhh, they just don't build 'em like they used to!!!
The magazines can pretty much go **** (you know) themselves!!
), the body is mint, it runs like a charm, starts good, drives good, feels damn solid, no squeaks or rattles .......... ahhh, they just don't build 'em like they used to!!!
The magazines can pretty much go **** (you know
) themselves!! 
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 483
From: Far, far away
Anyone who wants to see what a 150k mile honda accord runs like, feel free to stop by my house and see my sisters car. It's the biggest pile of **** on the planet and has lived an extremely blessed life. Nothing on the car works anymore.
If you want to see what a 300k mile camaro, or a 200k mile camaro runs like feel free to stop by sometime too. I guarantee they run a hell of a lot better than that pile of import crap.
If you want to see what a 300k mile camaro, or a 200k mile camaro runs like feel free to stop by sometime too. I guarantee they run a hell of a lot better than that pile of import crap.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,308
From: Oshawa - Home of the 5th-gen
The frame rails look in good condition, although I believe that the rear section may have been repaired at some point in its life? 
But it wasn't a hack job.I'll try to snap a pic of the beast later on!
And for another "anecdote" ... seeing as the Beretta was brought up ... my parents had an '89 Corsica LTZ (basically a 4-door Beretta) that had the 2.8L in it. When they sold it, it had almost 210k (miles) on it!!
(they bought it used with around ~100k I think?) The only major problem(s) we had with that car was that the heater core blew out in it twice in the time we had it. Oh, and it had the typical oil leak around the distributor "dummy shaft", but once that got replaced, all was well again. That car saw a lot of miles when we had it, and was even used for towing 2 snowmobiles on a trailer more than once way up north! Even ~3 years or so after getting rid of it, my Dad knew of the car's whereabouts, and it was still going strong!
How's that for POS domestic??
Last edited by Capn Pete; Jan 5, 2007 at 05:35 AM.