Will NASCAR's automobiles to die out in a few years?
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From: The Golden State
Will NASCAR's automobiles to die out in a few years?
Though I'm no fan of NASCAR, I do realize it's a good avenue for various drivers to pit their skill against one another in identical cars. It showcases the best team, the best driver, and it's great advertizing for whoever's sticker or paint scheme is on the winning vehicle.
But there is the problem. It has nothing to do with actual manufacturers or actual cars. There are a handful of small companies that do everything from roll cages, to engines, to fuel cells. All shapes are the same, and without the stickers that signify head or tail lights, the cars are completely unidentifiable.
Only the very gullible actually think the car on the track has anything to do with the car on the street, and (to put this as politely as I can) I wouldn't trust the IQ of anyone who buys a new Monte Carlo or Pontiac Gran Prix simply because Jeff Gordon's #24 "Monte Carlo"or (less likely) Jerry Nadeau's #1 "Pontiac" won the previous Sunday. May as well name the Marlin's Stadium "Monte Carlo" stadium.
The Australian V8 Supercar series is based on actual cars. There is alot of changes for safety and higher performance, but the engines, suspensions, and bodies are actually from the manufacturer, and a Ford Falcon that beats a GM-Holden Commodore is actually a win for the manufacturer as well as the team, the driver, and the sponsors.
There is no reason for automobile companies to be involved in NASCAR anymore. There is no technology development to gain (ie: Lemans and Corvette & Viper), there is no demonstration of a company's engineering capability, there is no chance to test new parts, and worse of all, the cars don't even look like the cars on the showroom floor anymore.
Pontiac has pulled out of NASCAR because it came to the conclusion that it simply doesn't do anything for them or their cars anymore. Dodge is extremely likely to be next to pull out from NASCAR (can't exactly run a station wagon or a block nosed 300C, can we?) though it's trucks will continue running, & Ford's Taurus replacements (primarily the Futura) is likely to mark it's exit from the automotive side of NASCAR as well. Also worth noting, Monte Carlo isn't a sure thing beyond 2005 either. If Monte dies, it's likely Chevy's automotive involvement will also.
I think a series based on actual production sedans (ie: The Supercar V8 series) is one good answer.
Even V8 imports could compete based on classes. GTO's beating BMWs? Caprices beating Infinitys? 300s beating Benzs?
NASCAR: http://wieck.com/public/*2PV_059631
ASC V8 series: http://wieck.com/public/*2PV_059646
But there is the problem. It has nothing to do with actual manufacturers or actual cars. There are a handful of small companies that do everything from roll cages, to engines, to fuel cells. All shapes are the same, and without the stickers that signify head or tail lights, the cars are completely unidentifiable.
Only the very gullible actually think the car on the track has anything to do with the car on the street, and (to put this as politely as I can) I wouldn't trust the IQ of anyone who buys a new Monte Carlo or Pontiac Gran Prix simply because Jeff Gordon's #24 "Monte Carlo"or (less likely) Jerry Nadeau's #1 "Pontiac" won the previous Sunday. May as well name the Marlin's Stadium "Monte Carlo" stadium.
The Australian V8 Supercar series is based on actual cars. There is alot of changes for safety and higher performance, but the engines, suspensions, and bodies are actually from the manufacturer, and a Ford Falcon that beats a GM-Holden Commodore is actually a win for the manufacturer as well as the team, the driver, and the sponsors.
There is no reason for automobile companies to be involved in NASCAR anymore. There is no technology development to gain (ie: Lemans and Corvette & Viper), there is no demonstration of a company's engineering capability, there is no chance to test new parts, and worse of all, the cars don't even look like the cars on the showroom floor anymore.
Pontiac has pulled out of NASCAR because it came to the conclusion that it simply doesn't do anything for them or their cars anymore. Dodge is extremely likely to be next to pull out from NASCAR (can't exactly run a station wagon or a block nosed 300C, can we?) though it's trucks will continue running, & Ford's Taurus replacements (primarily the Futura) is likely to mark it's exit from the automotive side of NASCAR as well. Also worth noting, Monte Carlo isn't a sure thing beyond 2005 either. If Monte dies, it's likely Chevy's automotive involvement will also.
I think a series based on actual production sedans (ie: The Supercar V8 series) is one good answer.
Even V8 imports could compete based on classes. GTO's beating BMWs? Caprices beating Infinitys? 300s beating Benzs?
NASCAR: http://wieck.com/public/*2PV_059631
ASC V8 series: http://wieck.com/public/*2PV_059646
Last edited by guionM; Oct 30, 2003 at 12:05 PM.
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From: SoCal
guionM Your preaching to the choir. I've wanted NASCAR to get more "stock" on Stock Cars for years. Its bad now the sheetmetal doesn't actually follow all the manufactures curves. These cars used to atleast have some body shape that made it a Chevy or a Ford. Now they are so so close.
I'd love to see NASCAR use a Monte Carlo, Taurus, or Intrepid body then put a roll cage in. I'd like to see NASCAR use production based V8's with EFI. That way NASCAR could actually help with new tech for GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Let Dodge use the Hemi, GM its LSX, Ford the 5.4. Sure things won't be even but thats racing. If your engine is down on power you go join the other side or work harder to get your engine to compete. NASCAR has for far too long held the technology and progress back for fear it would take competition away. ANd thus lower the value of their cash cow. The Winston Cup cars today arn't much faster than the 80's Winston Cup cars. In fact at Daytona and Talladega they are slower. Due to restrictor plates. If the cars are too fast then allow more aero aids like spoilers in the front. Make the cars underpan more aero friendly to keep the cars planted.
The only thing that changes in NASCAR is the shape of the sheetmetal, and the colors of the sponsors.
The tech is only good for NASCAR. The manufacturers get almost nothing in return for their investment other than maybe added sales. GM can't use any aero data, engine data, or suspension data because the cars NASCAR uses are so removed from the street that the data is only good faor NASCAR. Heck even the win on Sunday sell on Monday idea isn't like it used to be.
NASCAR is there to put on a good show and they certainly do but as a value to the auto world through racing they have not done much.
I'd love to see NASCAR use a Monte Carlo, Taurus, or Intrepid body then put a roll cage in. I'd like to see NASCAR use production based V8's with EFI. That way NASCAR could actually help with new tech for GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Let Dodge use the Hemi, GM its LSX, Ford the 5.4. Sure things won't be even but thats racing. If your engine is down on power you go join the other side or work harder to get your engine to compete. NASCAR has for far too long held the technology and progress back for fear it would take competition away. ANd thus lower the value of their cash cow. The Winston Cup cars today arn't much faster than the 80's Winston Cup cars. In fact at Daytona and Talladega they are slower. Due to restrictor plates. If the cars are too fast then allow more aero aids like spoilers in the front. Make the cars underpan more aero friendly to keep the cars planted.
The only thing that changes in NASCAR is the shape of the sheetmetal, and the colors of the sponsors.
The tech is only good for NASCAR. The manufacturers get almost nothing in return for their investment other than maybe added sales. GM can't use any aero data, engine data, or suspension data because the cars NASCAR uses are so removed from the street that the data is only good faor NASCAR. Heck even the win on Sunday sell on Monday idea isn't like it used to be.
NASCAR is there to put on a good show and they certainly do but as a value to the auto world through racing they have not done much.
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From: Hebron, KY
Couldn't you say the same (perhaps to a lesser extent) about manufacturer's invlovement in drag racing? You have the same sticker headlights on those un-identifiable bodies. I don't think that's what helped sell all of those Cavaliers...
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_048730
I'm not a fan of either and, as you described, am more likely to follow a race series that involves the actual production cars (or atleast ones that are recognizable).
I would still have to think the advertising is reason enough to participate, but who knows. I don't know if I'd tie Pontiac's departure in with all other manufacturers pulling out. In fact, aren't the import brands still trying to get in? There has to still be a valid reason to continue participation.
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_048730
I'm not a fan of either and, as you described, am more likely to follow a race series that involves the actual production cars (or atleast ones that are recognizable).
I would still have to think the advertising is reason enough to participate, but who knows. I don't know if I'd tie Pontiac's departure in with all other manufacturers pulling out. In fact, aren't the import brands still trying to get in? There has to still be a valid reason to continue participation.
Last edited by jrp4uc; Oct 30, 2003 at 12:56 PM.
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Why would Dodge spend millions of dollars to get into NASCAR 3 years ago, only to pull out a few years later. IT doesn;t make sence. Why is Toyota spending millions of dollars to get into NASCAR. Why does Chevy market the monte Carlo all around nascar (take a look at the brochure if you don;t believe me) It's all about advertisement. What the even point of the funny car division??? and I really don;t think Ford will back out of nascar once the Futura comes in. As it is, the taurus will be around until 2010 i beleve. and if the monte carlo ends production, chevy will still be in nascar, and would most likely use the Impala (they have used it before).
your responce to chevy making the Jeff Gordon monte carlo is that the owners that buy them are idiots??? get a clue.
do I know that the the nascar version of the MC is nothing like the street version? yes. would a buy a jeff gordon mc if i were a jeff gordon fan? yes. why, because racing fans are loyal, and studies have shown that. and if your not a racing fan, then you're never going to understand. the only series that has actural street car is SCCA, and how many people actualy watch that series. it's a heck of a lot less then Nascar. a manufactures knows that over 4 billion people watch nascar, thats advertising!!!!! why else do you think GM spends more money in nascar then in SCCA???
as a fan of nascar, sure I would love to have them get back to the days of running your street car at the track, but I also understand the major concern of safety. there is no way that you are going to slow down a car equivilent of 300 hp with an aero package (cause that about what they do with the restrictor plate).
your responce to chevy making the Jeff Gordon monte carlo is that the owners that buy them are idiots??? get a clue.
do I know that the the nascar version of the MC is nothing like the street version? yes. would a buy a jeff gordon mc if i were a jeff gordon fan? yes. why, because racing fans are loyal, and studies have shown that. and if your not a racing fan, then you're never going to understand. the only series that has actural street car is SCCA, and how many people actualy watch that series. it's a heck of a lot less then Nascar. a manufactures knows that over 4 billion people watch nascar, thats advertising!!!!! why else do you think GM spends more money in nascar then in SCCA???
as a fan of nascar, sure I would love to have them get back to the days of running your street car at the track, but I also understand the major concern of safety. there is no way that you are going to slow down a car equivilent of 300 hp with an aero package (cause that about what they do with the restrictor plate).
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From: Yadkinville, NC USA
While I don't disagree about the generalizations made about NASCAR, there is one point I must contest.
Those of you who beleive that NASCAR and it's presence don't sell cars are vegetables. It was NASCAR that created and validated the term "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday". It DOES sell cars (although somewhat unbeleivably to me as well).
Here in North Carolina, we are innundated with dealerships owned by NASCAR racers... There is Dale Earnhardt Chevrolet in Concord, Dale Jarrett Ford in Charlotte, Jeff Gordon Chevy in Wilmington, Terry Labonte CHevy in Greensboro, and so on. These dealerships all have their "special" packages with the driver's signature and all that jazz. There are "Sale-abration" specials at the dealer the day after a driver wins.
Beleive me, I know the transmissions are all Jericho, the rear-ends are all Franklin, the seats are all Simpson, etc... The cars are really homologous as you guys have noted. However, the block and heads are still castings from the manufacturer. What often happens now, is that Richard Childress or Robert Yates will develop a new head, then submit it to the manufacturer to produce and justify the design though NASCAR's regulations. Virtually all the other parts inside the engine are still independent, like Melling oil pumps, Manley rods, etc. And now the shops that are big enough to have internal engine programs are making their own pistons, cams, cranks, etc to their own specifications. Again, I am enforcing what was said about the car really not being a "stock" car. (Interesting side note here... back in the late '80's, Junior Johnson developed a head that was DOMINATING NASCAR with Darryl Waltrip and Neil Bonnet driving Monte Carlos for him. They were cleaning up, killing even the other Chevy teams. Junior turned over a set of these heads to GM to have them homologated, expecting to get a "pat on the back", some additional factory support, and a big "atta boy". What GM did was take his head, homologate it, make some tiny improvements, and then give it to Richard Childress with additional factory support for Dale Earnhardt's run at the championship. The net result was Dale went on to get the championship, and Junior Johnson got s**t. THAT is a huge reason why Junior defected from Chevy to Ford in the late '80's.)
Regardless, my points in this post are 2-fold...
1)Don't think for a second that NASCAR races and exposure doesn't sell... if there was no marketing capacity there, NBC would not be paying 8-digits to air the Coca-Cola 600 during prime-time on a Saturday night. It is the fastest-growing spectator sport bar none, and it's followers are fiercely loyal to their selctive brands. (I myself used to be that way, but I honestly have lost interest in it because I guess I know too much about what goes on behind the scenes now. I prefer Camel GT, Trans AM, and Supercar nowadays.)
2)I agree 100% that todays NASCAR team is fielding a car that has virtually no identity with the manufacturer except for stickers, a few castings, and the name on the sponsorship checks. (And that is truely sad IMO).
Those of you who beleive that NASCAR and it's presence don't sell cars are vegetables. It was NASCAR that created and validated the term "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday". It DOES sell cars (although somewhat unbeleivably to me as well).
Here in North Carolina, we are innundated with dealerships owned by NASCAR racers... There is Dale Earnhardt Chevrolet in Concord, Dale Jarrett Ford in Charlotte, Jeff Gordon Chevy in Wilmington, Terry Labonte CHevy in Greensboro, and so on. These dealerships all have their "special" packages with the driver's signature and all that jazz. There are "Sale-abration" specials at the dealer the day after a driver wins.
Beleive me, I know the transmissions are all Jericho, the rear-ends are all Franklin, the seats are all Simpson, etc... The cars are really homologous as you guys have noted. However, the block and heads are still castings from the manufacturer. What often happens now, is that Richard Childress or Robert Yates will develop a new head, then submit it to the manufacturer to produce and justify the design though NASCAR's regulations. Virtually all the other parts inside the engine are still independent, like Melling oil pumps, Manley rods, etc. And now the shops that are big enough to have internal engine programs are making their own pistons, cams, cranks, etc to their own specifications. Again, I am enforcing what was said about the car really not being a "stock" car. (Interesting side note here... back in the late '80's, Junior Johnson developed a head that was DOMINATING NASCAR with Darryl Waltrip and Neil Bonnet driving Monte Carlos for him. They were cleaning up, killing even the other Chevy teams. Junior turned over a set of these heads to GM to have them homologated, expecting to get a "pat on the back", some additional factory support, and a big "atta boy". What GM did was take his head, homologate it, make some tiny improvements, and then give it to Richard Childress with additional factory support for Dale Earnhardt's run at the championship. The net result was Dale went on to get the championship, and Junior Johnson got s**t. THAT is a huge reason why Junior defected from Chevy to Ford in the late '80's.)
Regardless, my points in this post are 2-fold...
1)Don't think for a second that NASCAR races and exposure doesn't sell... if there was no marketing capacity there, NBC would not be paying 8-digits to air the Coca-Cola 600 during prime-time on a Saturday night. It is the fastest-growing spectator sport bar none, and it's followers are fiercely loyal to their selctive brands. (I myself used to be that way, but I honestly have lost interest in it because I guess I know too much about what goes on behind the scenes now. I prefer Camel GT, Trans AM, and Supercar nowadays.)
2)I agree 100% that todays NASCAR team is fielding a car that has virtually no identity with the manufacturer except for stickers, a few castings, and the name on the sponsorship checks. (And that is truely sad IMO).
Last edited by ProudPony; Oct 30, 2003 at 02:53 PM.
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All those officially sanctioned race parts eventually make their way down into lower racing series as well. There are hundreds of small, saturday night tracks across the country.
They can't get out of NASCAR for the same reason they can't get out of Drag racing...no the cars are nothing like the real ones but the parts get bought by weekend warriors, mom & pop race teams etc.
The marketing and advertising is the big nut in NASCAR, that's indesputable, but the side benefits to GM Peformance Parts and its counterparts are emense.
Think of the ASA series guys...these are all Monte Carlos and Thunderbirds...very similar to a Winston Cup car...full tube frame car, etc. etc., except they all run Lingenfelter Prepped "ASA Vortec" LS1 engines, engine and PCM sealed by Lingenfelter (teams cannot modify). It keeps the cost down for that series and GM gets publicity for its "Vortec" engine line (helps sell trucks) and maybe learns something about durability too. ASA is a short track only series and has some great racing. Sure they don't turn right, but its still entertaining.
They can't get out of NASCAR for the same reason they can't get out of Drag racing...no the cars are nothing like the real ones but the parts get bought by weekend warriors, mom & pop race teams etc.
The marketing and advertising is the big nut in NASCAR, that's indesputable, but the side benefits to GM Peformance Parts and its counterparts are emense.
Think of the ASA series guys...these are all Monte Carlos and Thunderbirds...very similar to a Winston Cup car...full tube frame car, etc. etc., except they all run Lingenfelter Prepped "ASA Vortec" LS1 engines, engine and PCM sealed by Lingenfelter (teams cannot modify). It keeps the cost down for that series and GM gets publicity for its "Vortec" engine line (helps sell trucks) and maybe learns something about durability too. ASA is a short track only series and has some great racing. Sure they don't turn right, but its still entertaining.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
From: New England
what car is Dodge goign to use??? and I know thats why Toyota is going to get the green light to go race in NASCAR..I cant belive it but they are..
maybee Dodge will do the layover like Ford did with the T Bird and the Taurus, maybee the Intrepid will be held over till a sedan Magnum is built...and the body work..like the truck series Dodge will be molded to fit in with aerodynamics of NASCAR...
Dodge could use the Status as the next car...
maybee Dodge will do the layover like Ford did with the T Bird and the Taurus, maybee the Intrepid will be held over till a sedan Magnum is built...and the body work..like the truck series Dodge will be molded to fit in with aerodynamics of NASCAR...
Dodge could use the Status as the next car...
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From: Big Orange Country!
I think one big point is missed here. I think the reasons Pontiac is leaving NASCAR is money and Toyota. Toyota is coming to Cup, it hasn't been announced, but everyone knows they are coming. They are bringing big money with them as well. GM couldn't afford to divide the amount of money between the Pontiac teams and Chevy teams. I know there is alot of similarities between the two cars but there are differences. Those differences are aero, and that's the most expensive to R&D. If they have only one car to support, it is more effective finacially.
Sure, I'd love to see NASCAR be more like the Aussie V8 Supercar series, but it ain't gonna happen. NASCAR has done so well with the program they have now, why would they change? It seems on here that there are less NASCAR fans percentage wise than in the general population, but this place is the exception, not the rule. Around here, yes in the Southeast, I bet 80% of the people are somewhat interested in the sport. Most are avid fans that will not miss a race on TV or in person for hardly anything. If it ain't broke, NASCAR won't try to fix it!!
Sure, I'd love to see NASCAR be more like the Aussie V8 Supercar series, but it ain't gonna happen. NASCAR has done so well with the program they have now, why would they change? It seems on here that there are less NASCAR fans percentage wise than in the general population, but this place is the exception, not the rule. Around here, yes in the Southeast, I bet 80% of the people are somewhat interested in the sport. Most are avid fans that will not miss a race on TV or in person for hardly anything. If it ain't broke, NASCAR won't try to fix it!!
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From: Big Orange Country!
Originally posted by Ken S
If NASCAR did more roadraces, I'd be more intersted in it.
If NASCAR did more roadraces, I'd be more intersted in it.
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From: SoCal
Originally posted by Ken S
Isn't NASCAR moving to spec bodies soon?
If NASCAR did more roadraces, I'd be more intersted in it.
I hope they put Pontiac (the GTO?) in some other form of racing.
Isn't NASCAR moving to spec bodies soon?
If NASCAR did more roadraces, I'd be more intersted in it.
I hope they put Pontiac (the GTO?) in some other form of racing.
As for roadraces seeing a Winston Cup car at Watkins Glen is like seeing a 300lb lineman playing in the NBA. Sure it can be done but it doesn't look right. Those cars are a little out of their league at road courses. Keep them on the ovals whare they belong.
I think this decision to get out of NASCAR for Pontiac is partly their's. I mean lots of teams have switched to Chevy. The unlimate slap in the face was TOny Stewart and the the Gibbs team going to Chevy right after he wins the 2002 Winston Cup! Let Pontiac spend its money not trying to compete with Chevy. Cadillac has been in ALMS and Le Mans. And with the CTSv looks like they may return to road racing. Chevy is there too with the C5R. Let Pontiac get into some other kind of racing to promote its products while not having to compete with other GM divisions.