It's all just personal opinion and on that point I'll disagree with you and say that I think the Commodore looked better than the G8 - overall cleaner look without the Pontiac grille treatment, the tacked on side marker lights on the sides of the front bumper and the fake hood scoops, but I found the decklid spoiler on the Pontiac was much more tasteful than the SS-V's wing so I guess it's a kind of wash.

I do like the way the car looks on the street, it's restrained but with that E36 BWM-esque minimal front overhang, proper RWD windshield to front axle ratio, nose down profile and the flared fenders - it looks aggressive - maybe not in the way that the Charger looks aggressive but kind of Audi-like and modern. (we have to remember, the car debuted in 06, so the design is already 4 years old)

I would expect that Caprice will look as good in the flesh - although I'm not really fond of the Chevrolet grille treatment GM uses. Aside from (arguably) the new Malibu, it should be one of the best looking Chevy sedans in a good long while.

 

Simple. The GTO cost X to produce, ship here, market, and factor exchange rate. GM priced them at around $33K to cover all that and make a profit. However, most GTO transaction prices were in the $24-$27K range. I know, I considered buying one. There were even afew *new* '04's going for under $22K in '06. IOW, GM piled stacks of cash on the hood. $5,000, $6,000, $ 7,000, even more in some case, to clear inventory.

Unless you're telling me that Holden can produce and ship this car here for dirt - like less than what the average GTO transaction price was in USD (not AUS$), then GM lost money.

 

When were you shopping for them? What model years? The 04s were going in the 24-27 range. I believe the 05s and 06s were more like 27-30k, except when they were trying to close them out.

 

Some evidence:

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthr...did+you+pay%3F

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthr...did+you+pay%3F

 

Nobody was paying $24-$27k out the door for a brand new GTO, especially for the 05-06 models. I got a REALLY good deal on my car and paid just about $30k. The more realistic price range was probably about $30k-$33k, depending if you had GM card earnings or employee discount. I did a lot of shopping and research back in 2005 on this topic.

 

No, the Opel Omega looked just the same as the Cadillac Catera.

FOG....You've been here at this site about a decade like I have. Think back to when the Cadillac CTS' pictures first showed up here from pictures of it shot in secret parked on the set of an upcoming "Matrix" movie.

Do you remember how it was universally panned and slammed by members here??? Those pics made the CTS look hedious.

Then a number of months later, after the car showed up during the auto show season, and we started seeing them on the streets, most people here fell over themselves saying how the car stood out and looked like no other vehicle on the street.... everybody LOVED the CTS' styling.

You whip out the Catera because you have a position in which views the Caprice/Statesman as a boring car. You haven't seen it in person, and you bring out a car that came out about 13 years or so ago to support that opinion.

Reality is far closer to today, and many of the other car that GM has brought out this decade that looked bland or "so-so" in unflattering pictures that were shot quickly through the lense of a spy camera or copied from a video ir scanned from another picture.

Truth is if you think the G8 was a looker, then you will think the WM Holden is a looker.

It has a long wheelbase that makes it look larger than it is. It has a severe wedge shape. It has the same wheel opening blisters the G8 has. Yet, this car oozes class whereas the G8/Commodore looked like it had it's sleeves rolled up looking for New Beetle to beat up on.

You say that there is "no way anything out of Oz could "blow us away" with a smiley Chevy grille bolted on instead". You clearly state what your issue is with this one sentence. It is the fact that the car is from "Oz"... not anything about design, or how good the car looks, or anything else. Just the fact that a car from there has a Chevrolet grille on it.

For those who don't hold such narrow views, and who will look at the car with the same subjectiveness and eye that one would give to any car (from Europe, Japan, America, or Australia), I think they would be able to separate enough hyperboyle from theirt opinion to give the car an honest look.

I said when one sees a civilian level (as opposed to a stripped police version or one shown in absolutely horrible pictures) Statesman/Caprice on the streets, they will notice it. It won't simply blend in with it's surroundings.

Regardless as to what "smiley grille" is bolted to the front of it.

 

Wrong on quite a few levels, I'll just touch on a couple.

First: this issue of profit.

Simply put, the more you make of something, the smaller your profit margin can be on each item sold. Monaro's profit was set to be a certain amount selling 5,000 cars annually. Instead, they are selling not just that 5,000 but an additional 12,000 annually. The profit margin can be much smaller (in this case, up to 67% smaller) on each car and still make the same profit margin.

Example.

Say a Cadillac CTS costs $30,000 to make and sells for $42,000. Lets also say it's set up to be profitable selling 20,000 cars per year at $12K per car.

One day, GM decides that Cadillac should do a version of the CTS for Chevrolet to produce a car that Chevrolet is lacking. The added bonus is that this idea fills up spare capacity at Lansing.

Now GM say this Caprice version of the CTS sells at $32,000. That's only $2000 profit per car, but in the process they sell 50,000 Caprices in addition to 20,000 CTSs (even though Bob Lutz in a moment of insanity says that GM will sell 200,000 Caprices).

So instead of making only $240 million selling just CTSs, GM is making an additional $100 million selling CTSs as Chevrolets.

Now, moving to the view that Cadillac makes money, while Chevrolet loses money.

a) Chevrolet (and Cadillac) are part of the same company.

b) Even if we're talking nothing more than theroritical accounting between divisions, Chevrolet is still "buying" these cars from Cadillac at a price which is most certainly "at cost" to Cadillac (that $30,000 number).

That said, at $2,000 per car Chevrolet certainly isn't making Cadillac's $12,000 per vehicle.

But Chevrolet is still lining their pockets with about 40% of the money Cadillac is making. And since that 40% is money Chevrolet didn't have before, then it's profit to Chevrolet.

However, the whole thing's a moot point. Chevrolet and Cadillac is GM. Holden and North America are GM.

The General Motors Corperation made money on the GTO.

Regarding shipping costs, apparently, bulk shipping automobiles over from the Pacific isn't anywhere near as expensive one may think. Between $500 and $800 per car (commercial civilian rate is about $2500). Helps when you either own or contract the ships carrying literally thousands of your cars.


Second: Transaction price.

The average transaction price on a GTO typically was about $29K. That's the reality ATP, and not that friend of a friend whose's buddy's cousin found a GTO in Dustytown, Montana where the dealer was desparate to get rid of a GTO to clear a spece for a Tahoe. An exaggeration? Yes. So is pointing to what a 2004 GTO was going for in 2006.

GTO had $3,000 cash back and incentives from August 2004 till January or February 2005. That about covered it. Very little was offered afterwards (this information is easy to look up or simply go to gmmedia.com and write an e-mail request).


GM (as ALL car companies) do use incentives to clear inventory of discontinued cars and models that have been updated. Sometimes as money given to dealers, and others money directed to both the buyer as well as the dealer.

For instance the 2010 Ford Edge which is redone this year is carring a maximum of about $5000 in bonus cash & incentives while the 2010 Mustang is carrying $2500. The Cobalt has $2000 ($3000 if you're paying cash). Chrysler's 2010 300 has $2000. All vehicles have been or are being replaced by new models. If there are still some still on lots in 2012 (the same length of time as your GTO example), I will gaurantee you that those respective makers will do whatever they need to in order for those few dealers that still have inventory to move them.


I will give you a little bit of trivia on GTO pricing.

In 2004, GTOs cost about $35,000. By 2006, GTOs MSRP had droped to just under $32,000 for a manual (the auto had the gas guzzler tax and was more) all meant to get a handle on prices which many dealers seemed to run amuck on. The price dealers had to pay to get the cars was about $29,000. Employee price was about $28,000

While GM cut the price of the GTO from about $35,000 early on to $32,000...... GM didn't cut dealer invoice price! This put pressure on dealers to keep prices in line since the customer would see MSRP on the window.


Final bit of trivia on GTO pricing history:

...the 2006 GTO had no rebates.

One area Charlie is correct is that once the LS2 GTOs came out, selling leftover 2004s with the LS1s became a lot harder. I'll concur that it's entirely probable that there were some 2004 LS1 GTOs that lingered for some time before being sold.

But only Elvis, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, and the mysterious subatomic Nutrino were able to buy a new 2006 GTO for under $28,000 during the 2006 model year (as well as most of the 2005s made during their year) without giving some serious, and really extraordinary earthmoving oral pleasure to their local Pontiac sales manager then the Pontiac franchise owner with some left over for the area Pontiac district manager in successive order in the roomy back seat of one..... of course, with the seat and carpet covered with leak proof plastic seat covers and a lot attendent on call with a bottle of stain remover just in case.

Sure, if you piled on every single discount imaginable including supplier discounts and other discounts simply not available to the general public along with what was, you might get the price down to $27K.... or maybe a grand or so more if you wanted an unsold previous year GTO. But any claims beyond that falls into "my good, close, personal buddy told me ..." catagory.

GM simply didn't give dealers room to dance on GTOs after the 1st year and a half.

Any of you former Pontiac salespeople want to chime in on this?


* Note: the reason "during" is boldfaced is because all vehicles are discounted after their model year is over. This isn't unique to GTOs... all car companies do this.

 

The G8 did fine for the year it was on sale, considering the economy, which was disastrous. Now 2008-2009 may have seemed fine to you Charlie, but for most, $4.50 gas, bank meltdowns, and job uncertainty were pretty discouraging when it came to buying a new car, especially a V8 that averaged 20mpg.


So, I'll hazard that the success of the Caprice will depend on the price of gas and the economy in general.

If gas is relatively cheap and the economy is good, it'll sell. If not, then might as well focus on Cruzes and I-4 Malibus.

 

I hope they don't just sell the LWB version. The SWB version has a huge trunk and tons of room in the back seat. The LWB model is too big for me to want it.

 

Maybe you guys are right on the '06. I remember pricing one out before I bought my CTS, and remember getting down to $30K and some change. I'm not sure if that was before or after rebates. I do know that I had about $3500 in GM point. Neverthess, if you weren't picky about getting an M6, there were lots of sweet deals out there.

 

There's an old addage in business: If you buy something fo $10 and sell it for $9, you'll never make that up with volume.


I'll admit to not reading your whole post, (little pressed for time, I'm at work), but although the GTO was a cool car to add to our automotive landscape, it was a complete debacle for Pontiac and GMNA. In fact, I'd even call it one of the final nails in the coffin for Pontiac.

 

Jeremy, unless you are a BK attorney or government worker, the bad economy has effected everyone. I seem to remember some pretty big rebates for the G8 soon after it was released. I believe that you even took advantage of them when you bought your G8, right?

 

You're right, there were rebates on the G8, but remember it was one of the very, very few GM cars whose sales trajectory remained stable and climbed month over month where most others fell, some off a cliff in the exact same period of time when the price of gas went up and the economy tanked.

 

Personally, I find the Holden "originals" to be far more aggressive looking (attractive) than their Pontiac "versions".

As for the GTO... it was a badass little coupe. I test drove one at GM AutoShow in Motion and found it to be near perfect. I believe I even posted my experience here and if IRC, I commented that compared to my stepson's SN95 Mustang, it had more room in the backseat. Two things stopped me from purchasing one... (a) most dealers were slapping a market adjustment on them (minimum of $10k over MSRP) and (b) it was badged as a Pontiac. By the time prices started coming down to MSRP or less, the Camaro was more than a rumor, so I decided to wait.

Had GM simply rebadged the Monaro as a Chevrolet Whatever, I may have actually considered purchasing one.

 

Good to see I'm not alone in that opinion regarding Holden styling vs Pontiac styling...

I also agree on the GTO - I think it was a suitable successor to the original - everyone remembers the flamboyance of the Judge and not the overall similarity of the GTO to the garden variety cars Pontiac sold.

The only real fault in the car IMO was the gas tank relocation sucking up most of the trunkspace. Styling is subjective and the Monaro was already a couple of years old when GTO came along, so it would have been more contemporary earlier in the decade, IMO. The sharply creased and chiseled (300, Charger etc.) styling that started to show up at roughly the same time dated the GTO moreso. The rest of the "mess" was a dealership/GM mishandling/mismarketing fiasco.