Yeah, I know what you mean. I am trying to reconfigure my car buying cycles in expectation of a new Camaro. In return for that....I'm expecting certain things from this car.

IF Camaro comes back as a Chevy clone of the Mustang, ( ie., large chunky size, overtly retro, obvious cost cutting), but 4+ years later.....then I will be extremely underwhelmed.... and VERY DISAPPOINTED. So disappointed...that after all of these years of waiting, I may not buy, purely out of principle.

 

I know the 4.6s can be made to have power NA, but in my experiences it is never that easy. I don't know if the 3v head swap will ever become popular, because it isn't comparible to a relatively easy PI head swap on the 96-98, it is more comparitive to a 4v head swap on a 2 valver, an expensive, time consuming process. I also don't like how the bores are so close together, as the 4.6 is and even the 5.4 are quite limited in what displacement they can grow to.

About the hemi engines. If you look at the hemi bare block, and look at an ls1 bare block, there are alot of similarities. Didn't Chrysler even have an ls1 there while developing the Hemi? I am not saying this is a bad idea, as look what Chrysler has done with the Hemi engine, and how well it is marketed and sells. This wouldn't turn me off from buying a Challenger, its just something I have noted.

Yeah, this is definitely how I feel about it as well.

 

I'll make a case for all three.

Starting with the Mustang as it's the only one...well in existance and the other two could easily vanish into the ether.

The Mustang I'd buy because frankly well...it's a Mustang. I've always liked them. I don't have a problem driving a car that a lot of other people drive and I think the Mustang community as a whole is more tight nit than the Camaro or Mopar crowds. The car as a whole is a really nice piece. To my eyes it looks good. It will always have a decent aftermarket. And it is THE definitative pony car.

The Challenger well...I'd buy that one based on solely a single condition. Well three.
Looks weight and a 6 speed. If they do the car right...the Challenger WILL be in my posession. The allure of a big 6.1 or 5.7 Hemi is just too great. Dodge seems very serious in making big performers. You just can't argue with a starting baseline of 425 naturally aspirated horses in the SRT-8. And with the Charger being just like 35k I believe for the SRT-8 and 29k for the R/T. This car will probably be the cheapest of the three and from bottom to the top likely could be the biggest performer.
The V6 kicking out 250 horsepower the 5.7 kicking out 350 and the 6.1 kicking out 425. If it weighed in at 3400 lbs or so and had a 6 speed...say..out of a Viper I'd want one. If I could get an SRT for 29k. I'll definately have one.

The Camaro.
Well honestly it is going to take alot.
Traditionally I have always liked the looks of the Firebird over the Camaro.
And honestly I simply do not trust GMs styling if they don't do a semi-retro look on the Camaro. I am also weary that the car might end up being the most expensive. Also that GM might say...the LS2 is good enough and the SS or Z/28 will end up being much slower than the SRT Challenger or the special edition Mustang dujour.
I also fear that...well. It'll come out last and rather compromised.
So it will essentially take a perfect storm.

 

3) Looks, exterior wise 2) Engine modability 3) interior quality,

 

/\ What he said. Looks is the most important thing for me. I know the Camaro will perform, as the Mustnag does and as the Challenger will. I'd rather have an LS2 over any other engine, but I have huge doubts over the design for the Camaro. So until I see the prototype in January I'll be waiting on the Challenger, unless of course its design is butchered on the way to the production line.

 

I was speaking in terms of an aftermarket 3v head (one not designed with VVT in mind), admittedly the mod motors are compromised (originally I figured they were just designed to be really good smog motors) by the need to fit the engine in FWD apps, (small siamesed bore) which limits the amount of valve you can fit in the engine, but the 3v head nicely solves that, and that just leaves the delimma of displacment, however Ford did build an experimental short deck 4v V10 that displaced 351 cubes and stuffed it in a 99 or so mustang, talk about pavlovian response, the car was plain silver with some Saleen 18" wheels and said Boss 351 in plain letters in the side. It was a sweet ride, then again you can stuff the 2v tall deck V10 in one as well.

I haven't really paid attention to a bare 5.7 hemi block, but the engine is a real nice piece like the LS with a killer set of cylinder heads to top it off, from my understanding these things flow their butts off (duh! as well they should!)

Deep down inside I wish Ford would develop a real nice V8, but then again they have some morbid fascination with coming out with a gozillion engine designs every time a coin flips instead of just trying to mature and optimize what they already have in place and I think myself that they should just stick with the mod motors and see what they can do. Hell they could have gone with a hemi (opps! crescent head in Ford speak) head for the 2v mod motors from the get go and done real well with that, but I digress.

Another area they seem to go soft on is ignition timing, the 4.6 in the GT can pretty well run on peanut butter and these engines respond pretty good to timing changes (seems to me that 20hp is not unheard of by using a timing adjuster and a few other bits)

 

OK, OK! I'll try on the imagination helmet for a minute!

I really like the Mustang. I think from a styling standpoint, Ford nailed it. The interior doesn't look like it was designed as an afterthought by product developers & drawn up by people who just moved out of ashtray & cupholder design. The car moves, even in V6 form, and (despite the knee-jerk reaction by many to a live axle) the car handles extremely well unless you measure handling abilities on neglected, bomb blasted winding roads in Iraq.

It's a given that Chrysler's pony car is going to have a Hemi. It's also a given its going to have an SRT version. It's also pretty likely that Chrysler's ponycar is going to probally be the the heaviest pony car (my guess... around 3800 pounds), but only a fool would bet against it being the meanest accelerating car, especially for the price. Based on targets I'm getting, the car is going to be one accelerating mean bastard!

As far as "Chevrolet's Mustang", I think handling will be it's claim to fame. GM's ponycars have always been more about handling than about being the quickest (those of you who cut your teeth or became potty trained during the 4th gen might disagree). GM's designs have always been somewhat understated, but with GM's new direction that might be different.



On the surface, I'd say Camaro would be my choice because I value autocross-like handling over 2nd to none, road ripping, blistering acceleration. However, GM historically tends to price new hardware pretty high next to the competition.

A Chrysler pony car would be very solid, and very quick. I think overall, this "Challenger" would be extremely stylish to the point of stopping traffic given the history of Chrysler's designs. I think the car would also be competitively priced, and would be extremely hard to resist given the engine.

Meanwhile, Ford's Mustang will be long in tooth by then. By the time the Chrysler & Chevy come out, the Mustang would have been around for at least 3 model years. From what I understand, Ford isn't exactly going to create a whole new look for Mustang's '08 makeover. But will be creating a series of special editions and more powerful engines. On the flip side, by the time Chrysler & Chevy get to the party, Mustangs will probally carry the lowest prices of the 3.



Deciding factor? I'd still have to actually sit in, feel, and drive the cars and go with the one that feels "Right".

It sounds like a cop-out, but I never considered MN12 Thunderbirds till I drove one, and the same holds true for 4th gen Camaros. I ended up loving both enough to buy them multiple times.

 

If the Challenger was faster (around a track, or down one) than the Camaro, better looking, or had a significantly cheaper high performance model.
The biased I have for a 5th gen Camaro is from Red's enthusaism and drive to help us.

Another major driving force in my decision is whether or not Chevy will have a Camaro when Dodge's comes out. Even if they were a year apart in hitting the show room floor, and assuming I have the money to buy one, I would get whatever hit the street first. In 2001 we were talking about getting a Camaro in 2007 at the latest. Not it has moved to the 2008-2010 range. After we got wind of the looks of the current Mustang, guys were bitting their lipps trying to hold off from buying one...waiting for Chevy to follow it up with a Camaro. The time came and passed. I don't want to be in that situation when Dodge's hit the street.

 

The v10 Mustang was absolutely badass, and I saw a video of it floating around on the internet running down the track. Sounded freakin amazing, and made a stout 430 rwhp im memory serves me. However, adding two cylinders to a v8 isn't something that someone is gonna be able to do to their v8 mod motor sitting in their Mustang .
I wasn't aware of aftermarket 3v heads without the VVT, so I could see that being a fairly easy replacement for the 2v's, because honestly I wouldn't bother with swapping a set of current Mustang 3v heads on an old 2v, for with the amount of money and time it would take I would just go 4v anyway.
If the 3v GT is anything like the 2v GT, than yes, it should respond very well to a simple timing advance, and it will be something that you can notice, as I have had experience with it, so I can say with certainty.
I do wish Ford stayed with their engine designs longer too. I know the 302 was long in the tooth, and wasn't going to cut it very long for new emission standards, but I would have liked to see them go with a "new" 5.0, much like the LS1 is the "new" smallblock. I like the bore/stroke on the 302s much better, and those motors can still make alot of power na for cheap. Plus they are alot smaller than the monstrous 4.6 motor.
The Hemi is a nice piece too, regardless of how it was birthed, and its head with minor porting will flow over 300 cfm. I would definetly consider a Challenger if it performed well, as long as Mercedes annoying computer systems could actually be shut completely off (something I doubt, but would really hope could be done in a pony/muscle car.)

Sorry if that got alittle off topic to the orignal post. Guess we will all just have to wait and see what the future hold for the Mustang/Camaro/Challenger.

 

Sounds like you just described some of the roads we have over here in PA.