formula79

I mean..is saying a Camaro or Zeta car handles like a BMW really all that bad? People make out like a pony car should do something better...but I have never seen a mag review a Bimmer and be like "Man..this thing handles almost as good as a Mustang!". I mean in general..outside of the maybe the 1LE cars..most of the Pony cars have not been the best handling cars out there? Until the current generation, Mustang was pretty terrible handling wise, and had been forever. I know someone will go on about how great 3rd gens were...but in reality compared to most modern sports sedans they are maybe just barely equal. Those cars also had to manage a lot less power.

Just a random thought.

Z284ever

Lemme get some popcorn, this should be entertaining....

SSbaby

Because we are all looking forward to the newer version...

Fixed.

formula79

Okay..so from personal experiance..

I have driven 4th gens and thing the 5th gen "feels" better beind the wheeel. I have never driven a 3rd gen that was not a complete POS with parts falling off as you drove it.

Z28Wilson

Not sure what "feels better" refers to, but my guess is that the 5th Gen would "feel better" in certain areas. The chassis is far, far stiffer. No rattles or squeeks. Far more composed over bumpy roads. I'd be perfectly willing to bet that overall, despite its visibility issues it makes a better and more comfortable daily driver. But that kind of stuff isn't necessarily what we're talking about is it?

Yeah well, drive 99.9% of the 3rd Gens that are still on the road today and you'll get the same thing. You're talking about a 20+ year old car, most of which were not taken care of. It might be a little different if you found a well-maintained lower mileage example.

Getting back to Zeta and Gen 5, I know people say Zeta compares well with BMW, but I wonder just how many magazine reviews actually state as much. Reviews of G8 were very favorable, but how many actually went "all in" and declared it a 5-Series beater/equal? I honestly don't know, but I don't recall too much of that. As to why Camaro handling like a "good sports sedan" is bad, well, I guess it's because Camaro is not supposed to be a sedan? And it isn't just some number on a skidpad - it's tossability, sight lines, seating position - there are a lot of things that differentiate a sports sedan from a sports car, or coupe.

JeremyNYR

Saying 99.9% of the 3rd gens out there are falling apart is pretty out of touch. Those uncared for 3rd gens have mostly already fallen apart and been crushed just like had happened to the 2nd gens and 1st gens before them. I have to say that currently I see more damaged/beaten 4th gens on the roads than 3rd gens in poor condition. I think general perception is lagging behind reality just a little bit and you'll see appreciation for 3rd gens growing dramatically in the coming years.

Z28Wilson

Maybe an exaggeration. Honestly I can't remember the last time I've seen a 3rd Gen Camaro on the road, trashed or not. Could be those Michigan winters....

Z284ever

Saying a Zeta Camaro handles like a BMW and having it actually handle like a BMW are two different things. I've driven all manner of BMW's and really, I don't see the comparison at all. It's not even in the same league.

As far as comparing a 3rd gen to a modern sports sedan - is that fair? Why don't you compare it to a 30 year old sports sedan. Seems that would be more fair. I'm sure you know that the 3rd gens were considered some of the best handling cars in the world in their time. No one said, "hey lets be happy if it handles like a Celebrity - it's just a pony car". Nope. These cars were breathing down the necks of Corvettes and were compared to and pitted against Porsches.

Aim high.

jg95z28

Actually I couldn't agree more. Well said Charlie.

90 Z28SS

Thats why the "numbers" rarely ever tell the whole tale of the driving expirience .

...and Charlie , if I remember right without digging up articles . The 84 Z28 and the Irocs were typically more praised as better drivers car than the Vettes .

jg95z28

It was somewhere between 84-86 IIRC. If I were to build a dual purpose street/track car today, I'd start with a 86-92 F-body. Probably even lean toward a T/A as they tend to be cheaper and usually better cared for. Although I love my 95 Z/28, its a brute on the local 2-lane twisties. While my '89 240SX didn't have the power of my 4th gen; it sure as heck handled better.

90 Z28SS

Whole heartedly agree . I felt kinda the same way with my transition to the 4th gen back in 95 . I do love my 4th gens though and will always have my 94 Z , though I think the only thing left on it thats stock is the assembly line shell The 240's are cool cars , Ive had lots of exposure to those with a couple friends .

SSCamaro99_3

On the 3rd Gen vs 4th gen discussion, what really seperates them. The back half of the cars are nearly identical. The 4th gen front suspension "should" be superior. I know the 4th gens are a touch heavier. Handling shoud not be too far apart. Sight lines and seeing the edges of the body should be ngated by seat time.

Chewbacca

The biggest "problem" with the 4th gen is that they tamed it / softened it up too much as an attempt to reach a wider audience. They actually took this a step farther later with the LS1 cars (taller springs - increased ride height) There's nothing wrong with the design (except for maybe that stupid caster bushing I keep destroying). It's just that the springs are too soft and the bars are too small.

The SLA design in principle is actually superior to the modified Mac strut arrangement on the 3rd gen. The double A arm gains camber in compression / roll where a strut car pretty much doesn't. Also, the 3rd gen arrangement not a true Mac strut because the spring is mounted inboard. This introduces a good bit of stiction into the strut and is why those cars tend to "crash" over sharp edged bumps.

However, this extra stiffness in conjunction with the bigger bars and heavier springs can make the car a better performer off the showroom floor. It certainly makes the car "feel" racier. The 4th gen feels more civilized in nature though and that is exactly what they were going for.

The rack and pinion in the 4th gens is actually more precise feeling but the ratio is slower than at least that of the 3rd gen I owned. I'll take the precision if I had to choose.

Properly modified and setup, there isn't a lot of diffeerence between the two. We both generally seem to wind up in the same ballpark as far as wheel rate (3rd gens generally run a heavier spring but it "appears" softer to the car since it is mounted so much farther inboard). I've more than doubled the stock front spring rate (292) on my car to 600 lb springs. (FWIW I'm at 150 in the rear, up from ~115) I've also upped the bar to a 35mm. Guess what? The car feels a lot more tossable than it did stock; much more like what most would associate with a 3rd gen.

True, the car is still bigger and heavier (I'm at ~3350 lbs) than a 3rd gen and I do have to cope with that. Still, as I've said, properly modified and set up, either design can get it done.

Z284ever

Yeah, they were heaped with praise. They were the print media's darling. They were called the most beautiful American cars in decades. The Z/28 was described as the "American Ferrari". C&D named the Camaro as the 'Best Handling American Car'. They loved the **** out of it.

I'd love to see a Camaro make that kind of impact again...