Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Since some part of the old peanut gallery here seems to think that the title is an outlandish statement bordering on pure insanity, I'm gonna make my own thread out of it and 'splain:

Here we go:

First, how much more expensive do you think it is to produce a 400hp LS2 instead of an all aluminum 325hp 5.3 liter?

ANS: Darned little. Why? Well, look at the engines themselves.

Hyper-u-xplode-it pistons in both? Check.
Crankshaft costs the same? Check.
Rods the same price? Check.
Coil packs? Check.
Cam? Check - note that this motor will not be able to use a run-of-the-mill 5.3 liter cam to achieve the power.
Valves? Check - same technology in both. The LS2 does not use special (hollow-stem) valves.
Valve springs and hardware? Close to, if not identical pricing.
Block? Check - trucks don't get aluminum blocks, so there goes the economy of scale there.
PCM? Check. Component-wise, without DOD, I bet they're identical.
Intake? Check. A high-hp 5.3 manifold wouldn't be used in the trucks, due to the need for torque.
Throttle body? Might be a slight advantage there for the 5.3 if the truck throttle body can be used.
Fasteners? Same.
Gaskets? Same.
Water pump? Same.
Oil pump? Same.
Oil pan? Usually program-specific anyway.
Engine sensors and electronics? Same.

There's no price advantage to using the 5.3 liter. The LS2 would be a just-fine swap with only a minor (if any...) true cost differential.


Well, what about the drivetrains?

ANS: They're already on the way. CTSv and GTO are going to use similar differentials and transmissions, and a 325hp 5.3 Zeta isn't going to slouch around with a glass-jaw 10-bolt, so no savings there either.



Well, you could market it at a lower price!

ANS: No, you really couldn't. The actual production cost for the two is nearly identical. The only way you get to do this is if you soak the guys buying an LS2 car.



Other important points:

1) Mustang GT WILL move up in power, along with plenty of other cars (Evo, WRX STi, M3, etc..). GM will need to stay clearly on top of that mess.

2) You still need a car to deal with Mach 1's and Cobras, which are going to hover in the low-mid 30's, and a 400hp LS2 will very shortly not be enough motor to get the job done. That's why you need the room to move up to a 450hp or better motor.

3) GM has held the LS2 back. How? Look at the cam - it's a dead ringer for the old LS6 cam on .3 liter larger motor. How in hell does that make sense? .3 liters are sitting there begging for more cam, but GM didn't provide it... kinda odd, eh?

4) DOD can still be used in the LS2 with the appropriate changes. Since a high-strung 5.3 liter with DOD won't be any better on gas than an LS2 with DOD, what the hell is the point???

5) Who looks at a turd of a 305 equipped 3rd gen with envy now? NOBODY. The first thing anyone with the cash does is sh!t-can that boat-anchor of a motor.

6) WHY DIVIDE THE AFTERMARKET????

7) WHY MAKE IT HARDER TO SET UP FACTORY-SPONSORED RACING CLASSES???

8) WHY SELL A CAR WITH PERFORMANCE CLEARLY CHALLENGED BY A PREVIOUS BODY STYLE, 5 YEARS LATER???

9) WHY NOT DRIVE A STAKE RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES OF YOUR COMPETITION PERFORMANCE-WISE WHEN YOU CAN EASILY DO SO???

10) WHY IGNORE THE ECONOMY OF SCALE BENEFITS YOU GET BY SPREADING THE LS2 OVER AS MANY CARS AS POSSIBLE???

A midlevel V8 that doesn't blow the competition straight into the weeds is a waste of effort.

Go big or go home.

275hp V6
400hp V8
450hp UPLEVEL V8

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

I dont see cars in the pony car price range topping 400hp. Look at the insurance rates on the ls1 cars now because kids could afford them.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Actually the H.O. L33 and DoD LH6 do use aluminum blocks.

By your reasoning GM should only build the 427 LS7 and put it in everything (I wouldn't complain ;) )

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

You've convinced me. :eek:

But seeing as how going big is part of what got us at home in the first place Im still skeptical. The sales of this car if and when it is produced depend on a hell of a lot more than raw power. Maybe that doesen't need to be stated but...

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Old ones were iron blocks.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Jeezum, can't you get ANYTHING right? It's Hyper-PATHETIC, not hyper-u-xplode-it pistons.

Jeez.


;)

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Yes, up until last year except SSR/TrailBlazer V8, all were iron block. This year they added the 310HP L33 and 300HP DoD LH6 the the Aluminum 5.3L lineup.

I'd like to see GM make brand specific displacements, but that will probably never happen.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

This post is further proof of why you need to lay off the drugs :D

Seriously there is no need for a 400hp mid-level V8.
Like falchulk said---the insurance would be very high and prohibit people from owning a V8 Camaro.

Not to mention the mere thought of 400hp would scare lots of people away.
I am just talking about people that want a V8 and not a V6.

Then watch them go buy a Mustang GT. Sure the hp of that car will be up by the time the Camaro comes out. But not a 100 hp jump!! :rolleyes:

Plus a DOD 5.3L will still get better mileage then a DOD 6.0--and GM has to keep there CAFE figures high.

A mid-level V8 Camaro just has to be competitive with a Mustang GT, close in
price and performance.

But I am sure none of this will convice you. We are living in a renasiance of performance that died with the end of the muscle cars back in the 70's--and stills some people won't be happy until
you can buy a 500hp Aveo.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

first sane response here

why does a BASE v8 need to have 400 hp?
you could potentially scare away sales (who the heck really needs 400 hp in a base v8 car)

i am convinced that people buy the base v8 for the torque and sound (and bragging rights) rather than all out hp
look at the 3rd gen since you mentioned it
sure it didn't have hp but it sold...so what the he** has changed by now?
sure we have higher hp cars now but i can guarantee that if the base camaro looks good and has a 300-330 hp v8 in it, it will sell like hotcakes

i'll wait for a rebuttal (sp?) :)

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

My only concern would be insurance....

But who knows anymore...they way the rumors are flying, the Camaro may come complete with JATO packs on the sides!

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Somehow, i think things will be just like they were on the 4th gens with only one v6 and one v8 offered. Probably a 240-250hp 3.9 v6 for the base model, and a 380-400hp ls2 for the z28's and SS's.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Yes, it would be nice to have it, but for just the reason of having a mild Camaro for thoes who just want a little hp with some good style.
Also, how many more 305's did GM buid then 350 Thid gens? Did the 350 cost that much more to build then a 305? Did GM do it anyway?
Again, you are turning this car into a 4 seater Vette, and not a Pony car. You need to consider the volume sale. Last thing we need are more 16 and 17 year old kids with a new Camaro with 400hp under there right foot. 400hp!! That is still a lot of power for a factory car.
A 330-350hp 5.3 with DoD would be just fine for the mid level car. It offers plenty of power to keep ahead of the what else is out there, i.e. Mustang GT, and then you have a LS2 that can get up close and personal to much more expensive cars..
You cant call the 5.3 a "turd" like the 305 was. If the 5.3 makes just enough power to beat the Mustang GT, then I dont see a problem.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

I prefer Hyper-u-craptic....

There is never to much power. Im in the middle of a redo on my Camaro. Im hoping for 900rwhp (should see 850 for sure) So, a 6L 400 HP starting point sounds just fine and dandy to me!

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Amazing.
I dont know where to start.

Lets begin by looking a succesfully selling pony car - Mustang...which is also our target.

Mustangs 2003 numbers
V6 Coupe 59,943
V6 Convertible 26,500
GT Coupe 26,238
GT Convertible 15,518
Centennial Coupe 717
Centennial Convertible 1,323
Mach 1 9,652
Cobra Coupe 8,394
Cobra Convertible 5,082
TOTAL 155,370

27% of Mustng buyers bought the mid-level V8 with ONLY!!! 260hp.
I think that is fine. People get their "V8 fix" but dont get in trouble with their insurance company, it doesnt scare off the wives, and doesnt need to really, because most of these GT's will never see the track. This is what they want.

The car is moderatly priced, and sells well, leaving room both below and above for people who want the car as cheap as they can get it, and those who want extra performance.

MSRPs
Convertible, premium (V6) $26,525
GT Coupe, deluxe $24,110
GT Coupe, premium $25,280
GT Convertible, deluxe $28,415
GT Convertible, premium $29,585
Mach 1 $28,995

Now look at this....GT verts sold more than Mach1's at virtually the SAME PRICE. Maybe someone at the dealership was telling them that their Vert was faster than the Mach.....I mean....people only buy cars based on power figures right?

What I like about this price structure is that you have your model geared towards your enthusiasts right there, just a bit more than the GT, actually less than a loaded GT 'vert; and some people are actually buying V6 verts that cost almost as much as a Mach1. Weird.

Im not saying that the Camaro shouldnt have a ton of power.It needs a performance model, like the Mach, priced similar to a loaded mid-model. Im saying there is more of a market for a 300hp 5.3L Camaro than a 400hp Camaro, Ill buy the performace model, and buy the wife a Mid-V8 so she doesnt kill herself.

Lastly...its becoming more and more aparent to me that what you say this car NEEDS isnt what it needs to be succesful at all, instead its what it needs to make YOU happy. Remember Guions post long ago about the enthusiast helping to kill the F-body?


GM will build a car for you, called the Z28, dont worry.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

well done:)

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Yeah, I agree with some earlier statements. A 400hp "base" engine is insane. Allow me to explain why. I am almost 20yrs old, and when I got my Camaro, if it had a V8 with 400hp, i would have killed myself time and time again. And that has nothing to do with driver "skill". It is simply the maturity level of many of the drivers. This fact is exactly why insurance is insanely high for this car for people in my age group. And like has been said before, a 340hp base V8 would sell way better, because insurance would be down and more "normal" people would buy it, compared to a 400hp V8. And hey, that is what the Z28 is going to be for, the Hi-Po engine! I want to see a car that is going to be profitable for GM, while satisfying the enthusiasts. If that happens, it means that our car will be around for quite awhile.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Better then I could say myself L.A. Z--excellent logic and reasoning.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Do you guys remember when 400HP was Supercar #'s

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Just a quick break-away from election results.

Camaro is not Corvette. It needs to appeal and be attainable to a broader audience. I can't imagine a 400 hp Camaro being attainable to many people under 25...even if they oh, so much, lusted for it.

Maybe the base V8 won't be the 5.3 as we've been expecting. But I think the "sweet spot" at the later end of the decade, for a midlevel Camaro V8 will be in the 340-360 hp range. I can see the top V8, perhaps a 6.2L, with a healthy cam and manual trans in the 425-440 range.


Regarding V6, I just don't see how it will produce more than 240-250 hp. The rumored 3V 3.9, could see around 270...but I'm not betting on these 3v heads making production.

Forget the HF 3.6...or any HF V6 in a Camaro. That V6 probably costs more than an LS2.


Back to election coverage.......................

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

why not use the truck engine? I'm sure they will have 300-330 hp versions out by 2007, and it would be much cheaper to produce than a mini LS2 like Pacer X proposed. And we need a mid level V8 because insurance prices with the 400hp motor will make it unaffordable to most people.

Also, the 400hp LS2 should be a cheap option, with a significant number of cars built with it.(more than 10,000 LS2 cars) Also make it to where you can order the LS2 without having to check every option box. And there should be a top engine choice above the LS2 that could come out in a year or two.(to keep things fresh) And make sure that this top engine choice is reasonably priced(i.e. still a lot cheaper than a vette), and make a good number of them too(more than 5000)

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Yes I do. The Viper started with 400 didnt it. Or was it 450?
I know what 400hp feels like, and to say that it isnt for everyone is an understatment.

Guess Im part of the old peanut gallery.


Cant wait for Pacer's response....
Pacer, if you find error in my logic, please oh please let me have it.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Ill shut up after this...

My proposal;

240hp V6 - $18-27k
325hp 5.3 V8 $22-30
395hp LS2 Z28 - $27-29k
no vert, not alot of frills, factory race suspention, lightweight wheels, big brakes, dont freaking skimp on the audio system...395hp LS2 (call it under 400, build it to make 420, list the vette at 415, ala C5/F4), hope you can drive a stick!

30-36k SS - Motor from the Z28, power about the same, but load this puppy up with heated leather, some fancy hoods and spoilers, big nice wheels, navigation system, the works (AWD??)...also the only LS2/Vert option...hence the 36k. Only LS2 available in auto. This car is for the guy who drives his car everyday, has money to burn, wants everything he can get, but will probably never dream of putting his baby on the track.

The Z28 would no doubt beat up on the SS on the track, but SS boys would think they had it made, because they wouldnt be going to the track in the first place to find out otherwise. :)

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Let's not get crazy here.

The 5th Gen needs and will have multiple level V8's this time. One of the reasons that the 3rd Gens and the last M*stangs sold so good was because they had something that 4th Gens didn't, choice. There are lots of us that want big power, but those that want a nice decently powered V8 car would be left out, and they are a big market. There's no need for a crazy powered V8 mid-model, it should have a little more than the GT. I'd have a setup kinda like LAZ or have the SS have all the options and a good powered V8 or even two. There is an aftermarket for a reason, let people use it. Give levels and choices, one lower powered SS and a higher one to match whatever model M*stang is at a similar level then beyond the GT. Leave an all-powerful Z28 the unattainable model for the more established buyer and to take on other top competitors. There could also be special editions to create excitement and awareness. Maybe a ZL1 or something.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Pretty much what i was thinking. A mid-level Camaro doesn't need 400hp to beat Mustang or any other car near its price range for that matter. For that reason 340-360 would do just fine. But, i think that the top of the line camaro will need something upwards of 400hp (perferably closer to 450) just to keep up with or have a chance in beating Cobra.

I don't see a base v6 having 275hp as pacer is saying. No-way, no-how. 245 seems a lot more realistic to me. And having a 400hp "midlevel" while having a 245hp base would leave you with a 150hp gap, which is too large a gap. The 400hp level wouldn't be much of a "mid-level" would it?

In order for it to be trully a mid-level, numbers would have to be closer. Assuming 245hp for the base (gotta be at or under 20 grand remember, doubt we'll see 275hp 3.9 with VVT and 3valve heads) and 440-450hp for the top model, the middle-ground would be 348hp (347.5 to be exact). I don't know, but for this mid-model to be a "real" mid-level, it will need an output somewhere closer to 350 and not 400.

Another thing, i've been asking myself ever since this mid-level model talk came into question is "where do you get this mid-model?" 4th gen really only had 3 trims....base, z28, and SS. Without getting into the SS vs z28 debate, which do you think is more likely....1) A new trim model is introduced or 2) either z28/SS will get bumbed down a notch and stuck with lower-output motor. I can't help but think the latter.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

I think 4 trim levels would be perfect.
Base-V6-250hp-almost any option you want
RS-"Base" V8-340hp-almost any option you want
SS-"Base" or Hi-Po V8-340-400hp-any option you want
Z28-Hi-Po V8-400hp-limited options-"race car"

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

why does the midlevel need even 350?
is it really necessary?
that's still a lot of power for a midlevel v8
i'm thinking 330 should be fine, jmho

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

You know I was thinking, almost everyone says no to the HF 3.6L DOHC V6 for a base engine. Too exspensive they say. BUT isn't Ford dumping that POS 4.0 V6 in 06 for the 3.5L DOHC engine??

Orginally I heard Ford was going with the 3.0 Duratec in the 'Stang. But for whatever reason they went with the 4.0. I thought both were just interim options until the 3.5L DOHC V6 was ready.

Any one back this up?

If Ford does it why can't GM? Be fun to run that sucker up to 6500rpm+ and sounding awesome all the way :cool:

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

you might lose that motivation to buy the v8 with that engine in there...
just a thought:)

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

The 3.6 going in the base V6 Camaro would be a good idea...but how about this..

Base Camaro comes with the 3.5 making 200hp (about as much as the base V6 Mustang)
2nd level Camaro comes with the 3.6 making 300hp, matching the 300hp of teh Mustang GT...with 2 less cyls! What a great way to stick it to the Mustang by making the same amount of hp with a V6!
But by 07, Im sure the V6 Mustang will be at 250. I would still like to see the 3.6 make it into the Camaro.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

why don't we just save that for a car that needs a performance oriented v6...

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Why save it? If we could have a V6 camaro, the size of a 350Z or G35 with the same performance using the same technology....it would only be awesome to take on them as well.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

no.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Nope. That's a market for a different car altogether.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

:alert: INSURANCE :alert:

or just underrate it about 75 hp ;);)

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

In light of Guy's recent post, I think we can forget about seeing more than one engine choice for Camaro. Assuming there are two cars, the Chevelle/Zeta Coupe will be the higher volume car with multiple drivetrain options. Camaro, as a niche car, will be treated much like the Corvette is treated. :D

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

I really dont like the idea of a niche Camaro. But if it is built off the Beta or Torrana chassis, I guess thats going to be the case.

I also think that if the Camaro is NOT a Zeta car, I think that we can give up hope for a AWD model for now, but an AWD Monte would deffinatly give it a "luxury coupe" edge.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

Check out the other thread and my one engine for Camaro suggestion. I speculated the niche Camaro would return as:

07 Camaro SS V8 Coupe
07-08 Camaro SS V8 Convertible
08-09 Camaro Z28

What if the Z28 is AWD? ;)

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

I think that is a very good scenario BUT I think it won’t happen due to cost. The powertrain would have extra components and would need to be quality parts too. (half-shafts etc.) I think that would drive up the price quite a bit to say 38K-40K which is pretty pricey.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

lets not turn this into another AWD camaro debate

Also remeber that the 35K Evo is based on a $13,000 econobox. I'm sure that adding AWD had something to do with the price going up by $22000.

Re: Why Camaro need a 400hp MIDLEVEL engine...
 

I agree with pacer.

You guys are acting like the LS2 is such a HUGE increase from the LS1. IT'S NOT.

I also see some:

"I'd kill myself in a 400HP car...blah...blah..blah"

"It's too fast"

"People will be afraid"

C'mon now, how much more does the LS2 actually put down than the LS1? 30-40rwhp? IT'S NOT THAT BIG OF AN INCREASE.

It would actually make sense considering the last of the F-bodies actually put down 350 Horsepower.

Use a LS2 as the midlevel and underrate it at about 350 Horsepower, just like they underrated the LS1. Would that make you sissies happy?

If some sissies are too afraid to drive an LS2, V8 5th gen Camaro, let them have the six, or buy a Mustang.

BTW: An ls1 camaro which is as much as 7 years older, still does a good job at taking out any 05' GTs. :)