When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
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Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
Originally Posted by guionM
2. You saw the direction GM was headed with the new Camaro before it was pulled. Look up the Chevy Nomad Concept. Not the new Kappa-based one, the one from the late 90s based on a........Camaro chassis!
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From: Chicagoland IL
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
Originally Posted by PacerX
Yes.
The "thermal event separator" (commonly known as the "firewall") was a big issue on Sigma in that it was too tall and stood the car up too much. With Zeta the issue can be avoided.... somewhat.
The "thermal event separator" (commonly known as the "firewall") was a big issue on Sigma in that it was too tall and stood the car up too much. With Zeta the issue can be avoided.... somewhat.
Am I wrong?
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,298
From: Detroit, MI USA
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
Some of these dates are off....
One replacement idea was Holden....but looking at the Monaro/GTO, I think all of you agree that it ain't a Camaro....and that was our opinion as well.
There is still a piece of this story not told....and I ain't telling right now (read my book in 15 years.....) .....about decisions as to the future....and why stuff occurred........and regardless of another post here...the CAW is a concern and an issue.
PacerX is correct in issues with Firewall in Sigma...that and some who felt costs would be too high.
In terms of volume/profitability......it starts with forecasting volume...and then basing the business case off that forecast. Forecasting is a very tough job.....get it wrong and the red ink flows. Think about this...how many of you would like to bet a year's worth of your paychecks on the market volumes by segment in the 2008 model year?
One replacement idea was Holden....but looking at the Monaro/GTO, I think all of you agree that it ain't a Camaro....and that was our opinion as well.
There is still a piece of this story not told....and I ain't telling right now (read my book in 15 years.....) .....about decisions as to the future....and why stuff occurred........and regardless of another post here...the CAW is a concern and an issue.
PacerX is correct in issues with Firewall in Sigma...that and some who felt costs would be too high.
In terms of volume/profitability......it starts with forecasting volume...and then basing the business case off that forecast. Forecasting is a very tough job.....get it wrong and the red ink flows. Think about this...how many of you would like to bet a year's worth of your paychecks on the market volumes by segment in the 2008 model year?
Last edited by Fbodfather; Sep 7, 2004 at 10:00 PM.
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From: Chicagoland IL
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Red Planet
One replacement idea was Holden....but looking at the Monaro/GTO, I think all of you agree that it ain't a Camaro....and that was our opinion as well.
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From: The Golden State
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Red Planet
Some of these dates are off....
One replacement idea was Holden....but looking at the Monaro/GTO, I think all of you agree that it ain't a Camaro....and that was our opinion as well.
There is still a piece of this story not told....and I ain't telling right now (read my book in 15 years.....) .....about decisions as to the future....and why stuff occurred........and regardless of another post here...the CAW is a concern and an issue.
PacerX is correct in issues with Firewall in Sigma...that and some who felt costs would be too high.
In terms of volume/profitability......it starts with forecasting volume...and then basing the business case off that forecast. Forecasting is a very tough job.....get it wrong and the red ink flows. Think about this...how many of you would like to bet a year's worth of your paychecks on the market volumes by segment in the 2008 model year?
One replacement idea was Holden....but looking at the Monaro/GTO, I think all of you agree that it ain't a Camaro....and that was our opinion as well.
There is still a piece of this story not told....and I ain't telling right now (read my book in 15 years.....) .....about decisions as to the future....and why stuff occurred........and regardless of another post here...the CAW is a concern and an issue.
PacerX is correct in issues with Firewall in Sigma...that and some who felt costs would be too high.
In terms of volume/profitability......it starts with forecasting volume...and then basing the business case off that forecast. Forecasting is a very tough job.....get it wrong and the red ink flows. Think about this...how many of you would like to bet a year's worth of your paychecks on the market volumes by segment in the 2008 model year?
I'll agree that the current Monaro isn't a Camaro, but I think it's more because of content (and that 55" of height) than the body itself, when compared to the 1st gen Camaro. That interior and standard equptment is more Cadillac & Buick than Chevrolet.
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Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Chicagoland IL
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
Originally Posted by guionM
I'll agree that the current Monaro isn't a Camaro, but I think it's more because of content (and that 55" of height) than the body itself, when compared to the 1st gen Camaro. That interior and standard equptment is more Cadillac & Buick than Chevrolet.
With that said...I don't see one itty bitty shred of Camaroness in the GTO/Monaro.
It's a sedan based coupe, which works as a GTO....but is woefully inadequate as a Camaro.
As work progresses on the next Camaro/Monaro/GTO.....I hope someone within GM with lots of clout and a firm hand.....sees things my way.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 87
From: WI USA
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
Originally Posted by guionM
1. GM didn't really have a chassis for the Camaro. The Holden V-car & the Cadillac "Sigma" was considered but rejected mainly because of cost, the collapse of the coupe market, and a group running GM that came from outside the car industry who didn't really understand the use of a Camaro in a showroom that had the Corvette already and saw no problem with all cars being cheap, easy to make FWD chassis (except Cadillac and the forementioned Corvette).
2. You saw the direction GM was headed with the new Camaro before it was pulled. Look up the Chevy Nomad Concept. Not the new Kappa-based one, the one from the late 90s based on a........Camaro chassis!
For you old timers here, remember how Red & others said that advertizing wouldn't have saved the Camaro, and how we (me included) though these guys must have had their brains zapped by aliens? Well, there happens to be a element of truth to their claim.
The coupe market imploded in the late 90s, and the biggest victims were low-slung sports coupes. Monte Carlo heald steady & Mustang actually started growing in a market that was collasping. When you look at the overall coupe market at the time, though the F-bodies combined were the 2nd best selling sports coupe, all other coupes (that were smaller and just as "confined") fell even worse.
Big difference was they were based off FWD sedan chassis, and could still be profitable. F-bodies, on the other hand, had to be completely re-engineered (their chassis was obsolete). The numbers weren't worth it to the old-guard GM.
There is a laundry list of other items that doomed the F-body that is simply mind boggling (makes you wonder why the cars lasted as long as they did
). Though it seems people had it in for Camaro (which is true), any other car wouldn't have made it as far as Camaro did before being killed.
Though the bad guys made things worse, the 4th gen was a dead duck years before it died.
2. You saw the direction GM was headed with the new Camaro before it was pulled. Look up the Chevy Nomad Concept. Not the new Kappa-based one, the one from the late 90s based on a........Camaro chassis!
For you old timers here, remember how Red & others said that advertizing wouldn't have saved the Camaro, and how we (me included) though these guys must have had their brains zapped by aliens? Well, there happens to be a element of truth to their claim.
The coupe market imploded in the late 90s, and the biggest victims were low-slung sports coupes. Monte Carlo heald steady & Mustang actually started growing in a market that was collasping. When you look at the overall coupe market at the time, though the F-bodies combined were the 2nd best selling sports coupe, all other coupes (that were smaller and just as "confined") fell even worse.
Big difference was they were based off FWD sedan chassis, and could still be profitable. F-bodies, on the other hand, had to be completely re-engineered (their chassis was obsolete). The numbers weren't worth it to the old-guard GM.
There is a laundry list of other items that doomed the F-body that is simply mind boggling (makes you wonder why the cars lasted as long as they did
). Though it seems people had it in for Camaro (which is true), any other car wouldn't have made it as far as Camaro did before being killed.Though the bad guys made things worse, the 4th gen was a dead duck years before it died.
I am totally baffled how GM could have so many people internally that were against the Camaro. I don't understand how you can treat a car with the universal recognition that the f-cars had with such indifference. Ford embraces its Mustang and heritage with open arms while it sounds like GM treated the f-cars as the ugly stepchild. Didn't these people within GM understand that the value of these cars was more than just their sales numbers? The Firebird was the reason I would visit my local Pontiac showroom each fall. I can honestly say that I have not been there since the Firebird has been put on "hiatus". For that matter, I have not been to a Chevrolet showroom since then either. Reading all of this again is just a really upsetting reminder.
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From: Jersey Shore
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
I think the GTO is what the next Camaro should lean twards. The seating positon was great, and is not Corvette-low, but its not SUV high. Its at that happy median. Maybe drop it a bit lower, but dont go too low. The GTO's size is also about what I would like to see the Camaro at, maybe a bit wider. The Monaro(and I use that car, and not the GTO because of teh gas tank), has a lot of room front and rear, as well as a large trunk, and still much smaller then the 4th gen I belive. Id take the basic lay out of the GTO/Monaro with its seating, and figure out a way to hide that gas tank better, and you have an awesome car thats just right.
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Posts: 2,368
From: OR
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
GM is the business to make money first, via cars.. (although isn't their finance divisions carrying the team now?)
I've always felt that GM has some brilliant, ethusastic people, that get drown out by bean counters, and walled inside an corporation with no soul. Lately, its gotten better, but still....
I've always felt that GM has some brilliant, ethusastic people, that get drown out by bean counters, and walled inside an corporation with no soul. Lately, its gotten better, but still....
Originally Posted by 3TAS4ME
I am totally baffled how GM could have so many people internally that were against the Camaro. I don't understand how you can treat a car with the universal recognition that the f-cars had with such indifference. Ford embraces its Mustang and heritage with open arms while it sounds like GM treated the f-cars as the ugly stepchild. Didn't these people within GM understand that the value of these cars was more than just their sales numbers? The Firebird was the reason I would visit my local Pontiac showroom each fall. I can honestly say that I have not been there since the Firebird has been put on "hiatus". For that matter, I have not been to a Chevrolet showroom since then either. Reading all of this again is just a really upsetting reminder.
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Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Big Als Z
I think the GTO is what the next Camaro should lean twards. The seating positon was great, and is not Corvette-low, but its not SUV high. Its at that happy median. Maybe drop it a bit lower, but dont go too low. The GTO's size is also about what I would like to see the Camaro at, maybe a bit wider. The Monaro(and I use that car, and not the GTO because of teh gas tank), has a lot of room front and rear, as well as a large trunk, and still much smaller then the 4th gen I belive. Id take the basic lay out of the GTO/Monaro with its seating, and figure out a way to hide that gas tank better, and you have an awesome car thats just right.
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Posts: 61
From: Port Royal, SC
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Red Planet
One replacement idea was Holden....but looking at the Monaro/GTO, I think all of you agree that it ain't a Camaro....and that was our opinion as well.
If I wanted an upright coupe I'd buy one...
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Let me get this out of the way....I like the new GTO.........
With that said...I don't see one itty bitty shred of Camaroness in the GTO/Monaro.
It's a sedan based coupe, which works as a GTO....but is woefully inadequate as a Camaro.
As work progresses on the next Camaro/Monaro/GTO.....I hope someone within GM with lots of clout and a firm hand.....sees things my way.
With that said...I don't see one itty bitty shred of Camaroness in the GTO/Monaro.
It's a sedan based coupe, which works as a GTO....but is woefully inadequate as a Camaro.
As work progresses on the next Camaro/Monaro/GTO.....I hope someone within GM with lots of clout and a firm hand.....sees things my way.
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Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 3,252
From: Knoxville, TN
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
Originally Posted by PacerX
That's the polling data and marketing information that GM needs. The lack of t-tops would be a huge negative both in the marketing of the car and monetarily.
Originally Posted by Big Als Z
I think the GTO is what the next Camaro should lean twards. The seating positon was great, and is not Corvette-low, but its not SUV high. Its at that happy median. Maybe drop it a bit lower, but dont go too low. The GTO's size is also about what I would like to see the Camaro at, maybe a bit wider. The Monaro(and I use that car, and not the GTO because of teh gas tank), has a lot of room front and rear, as well as a large trunk, and still much smaller then the 4th gen I belive. Id take the basic lay out of the GTO/Monaro with its seating, and figure out a way to hide that gas tank better, and you have an awesome car thats just right.
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Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Bob Cosby
Disagree. IMHO, the Camaro should be smaller, lighter, sportier, and bolder - though it should have at least as much power.
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From: OR
Re: When GM decided to kill funding for the 5th gen
The better engineered it is to begin with, the less shortcomings to work with, the better the performance vs comfort ratio, which leads to higher refinement. So looking in that way, you can never be too refined..
Doing bandaid fixes and totally comprimising performance for comfort is not refinement.
So for the Camaro, I'd like a performance orientated suspension and rubber setup, with a cloth interior.. If it was made right, it doesn't have to be a ultra stiff rattle trap ride with a cheezy interior..
Doing bandaid fixes and totally comprimising performance for comfort is not refinement.
So for the Camaro, I'd like a performance orientated suspension and rubber setup, with a cloth interior.. If it was made right, it doesn't have to be a ultra stiff rattle trap ride with a cheezy interior..