Z284ever

The GP GXP was as good as can be expected. A far better (performance) effort than it's MC SS and Impala SS brothers. But for it to have recieved all of those extra touches, required afew people of focus and passion to be involved. Unfortunately, those people weren't running Pontiac.

Sixer-Bird

2003 seems to be a year that stands out to me in regards to Pontiac. No Firebird, GTO a year away. G6 was negelcted as soon as it debuted in 2005. It never got the supercharged engine or AWD that was slated for it. The 04 GP was horrific. It looked like the previous gen got bloated and fat, and GM never tried to honestly fix it. The alpha numeric names made it impossible to market the products.

And probably the worst thing that GM did was decide to make Pontiac the rental car division.

dfmoeller

The above pretty much sums it up in one small sentence.


I find this thread very interesting, since I was a Pontiac man for many years. The Pontiac fans of the world seem to fall into two very distinct groups. For the first, the love is for 389s/400s/428s/455s, early GPs, Bonnevilles, GTOs, F1 and F2 Firebirds and Trans Ams, Catalinas with Ventura trim, 70s GPs, especially the '69-'72 models, and more. For this group, body cladding, Chevy motors, V6s, and all forms of transverse FWD were anathema. For the second group, Pontiac actually had a second chance at life (which it squandered). This group likes FWD GPs and Bonnevilles, Grand Ams, and F4 Firebirds. For them, the earlier models aren't really relevant. In any event, PMD and GM managed to let that love slip through their hands, too.

I do believe that if GM had not imploded, that combining Buick and GMC with Pontiac was actually the right thing to do (and I still believe that GM's refusal to sell the name implies that there is hope that the name could re-emerge on some specialty vehicle at some point). One BGP brand and distribution system, but differing identities for cars with different characteristics. The dealer network was almost in place, too. It would have cost virtually nothing to implement from the point they were at. The Solstice (while I was never a fan, I did see the attraction for some) and the G8 (why, oh why, was this not called by its proper name, Grand Prix and promoted properly?), a new Zeta based GTO, and maybe even an Alpha Firebird, would have been a great complement to the Buick FWD based sedans in a single showroom, and given the new dealership chain an actual full line of vehicles to offer.

Overall though, I agree with Wangers, Pontiac was on a downhill path the minute John Delorean moved to Chevy. It just took a few years to see the effects. They went from inspired leadership to retarded management with abysmal vision following that move.

gtjeff

From what I have read the Oshawa plant had exclusive rights to the Grand Prix name. They could have called it Bonneville instead, there were a few high hp Bonneville models in the early 60's, so the heritage was there. I mentioned this idea to one of GM's VP's at the Product Technology Event.

I was a big fan of Pontiac and see it as a major mistake eliminating the brand.
You had mentioned wondering about why Pontiac was not put up for sale, I thought the same thing. Here is a link to the BusinessWeek.com article I wrote that discussed that idea and how the brand was not properly marketed.
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/...521_339302.htm

soul strife

Nice Article. And the place a lot of those Grand Am/ Grand Prix owners will go, will not have a bow tie on the front. More than likely Previous Pontiac owners will defect to Mazda or Nissan. IMHO

HuJass

As soon as that last 400 powered Pontiac rolled off the assembly line, Pontiac lost it's identity.
They became just a Chevy with a split grille and red lighting.

dfmoeller

I was actually aware of the union tie-in to the plant and Grand Prix model name. You are absolutely correct about the Bonneville name, though. That may have even been a better selection than Grand Prix.

What I was really lamenting is the utter stupidity of letting your union hold control of your most basic core marketing strength - the model name. I understand how the union was wanting job security, but that could have been negotiated and provided in other ways, such as describing a car targeted toward "X" market segment, rather than tying the name to it. Those idiots did the same with Camaro. Just plain face-palm material here.

BTW, excellent article reference. I really do think there MUST have been some reason not to sell the name. If not, its almost like GM was wanting to lose money. I, personally, don't understand why it still doesn't exist combined with Buick. It would have cost NOTHING that wasn't already spent. But then again, this is GM management we are talking about. The same folks who apparently believe it FAR more important and "correct" that know-nothings like Susan Docherty be promoted, rather than give the slot to someone who understands it.

formula79

The problem is..they found a way to take an ugly car (04 GP), and make it uglier (04 GXP).

Z28Wilson

Maybe I'm too young (31) to really agree with that, but to me, Pontiac very well could have survived and (did) thrive without its "own" engines. To me, Pontiac was much more than just a unique engine displacement. Pointing to the consolidation of GM Powertrain as the "downfall of Pontiac" is dramatically nostalgic but far, far too simplistic.

Az-wreck was bad, really bad. But Pontiac royally screwed the pooch when they so poorly redesigned their two core vehicles, Grand Prix in '04 and Grand Am/G6 in '05. If both of those vehicles were home-runs, we'd be talking today about a bright Pontiac future. Heck, if even the G6 was a hot car they'd probably still be here.

HuJass

Yes, you are too young.

What you fail to know is how loyal divisional buyers were to their divisions. There were lawsuits when people found out that a Chevy engine was in their Oldsmobile or a Buick engine was in their Pontiac.
That's why GM started putting disclaimers on their literature back then saying that parts in their car may come from other sources.

Yes, Pontiac was more than a unique engine, but that engine was the biggest piece of it's uniqueness. Take that away and put a Chevy engine in and what do you have? Just another Chevy. Pontiac buyers at the time knew this.

The loss of the Pontiac engine clearly defined the loss of Pontiac's uniqueness, and therefore it's identity. There was no bigger blow to Pontiac's identity (some might say that when Pontiac introduced minivans and SUVs, but the image was so tarnished by then it didn't matter). Most Pontiac historians would agree with this statement.

You didn't exist in the time when Pontiacs were Pontiacs (and Oldsmobiles were Oldsmobiles, etc). It would be hard for you to understand. People bought cars for it's engine as much as they did for the car. Brand loyalty was HUGE back then. It was a different time.

Z28Wilson

^

If that is the case, then Pontiac simply wasn't going to be saved. No car company in the world that I can think of uses completely unique engines across its divisions save for the uber-expensives/exotics.

You still found the Pontiac Solstice tempting enough to buy even though it shared most everything with a Saturn Sky. Pontiac didn't need to rely on completely unique parts as much as it did an image and a proper combination of GM parts bin stuff. 1978 may have been the farewell year for the older diehards but it in no way led to Pontiac's 2009 demise.

Z284ever

Losing the Pontiac V8 was a major blow, for sure. I never look at a 3rd or 4th gen Firebird the same way as I do a 1st or 2nd gen. But beyond that, Pontiac was so mismanaged and unfocused, it was living on borrowed for a long time.

The GTO. When Pontiac was unable to market it's most hallowed performance brand name effectively - you just knew they were toast.

HuJass

You nailed it in your first sentence. Just ask any real Pontiac enthusiast.
GM should have pulled the plug on Pontiac in the '79-'81 timeframe instead of tarnishing it's image.

I did buy a Solstice. But I've accepted the fact that corporate GM won out over divisional individuality. Do I like that fact? Absolutely not! But if I don't buy a Pontiac, what else do I buy? And before you say that other people accepted as well, they have not. If they did, Pontiac would have been able to move more of their new GTOs than they did. The older Pontiac die-hards (as you like to put it) just did not warm to that car. It just wasn't a Pontiac. And they would have probably been able to move more Sols and G8s, as well.

I assume you are not a real fan of Pontiac. If you were, you would understand what I'm talking about. Go to an all-Pontiac car shows and talk to the owners, go to the strip and talk to Pontiac owners. They will tell you the same thing as I am.

Jim Wangers (as well as other Pontiac historians) will tell you the same thing.


Now you don't have to believe any of this, but that is your perogative. I just happen to KNOW how real Pontiac enthusiasts feel about this issue.

formula79

I have never seen Pontiac's image as being tied to the motor..maybe I am too young?

Z284ever

It'd be like........the Corvette no longer using a smallblock Chevy, but a generic ACME engine.