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What's the deal with E85?

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Old Feb 13, 2006 | 02:03 PM
  #31  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

Originally Posted by 91_z28_4me
Threxx don't forget the fuel used to harvest the corn and process it.
In one of the links I posted above has a new process of creating enthanol from corn. This includes using the stock and cob of the corn. Which means that not only can ethonal be made from corn being raised just for enthonal, it can also include corn we raise to feed live stock, pets, and people.
Old Feb 13, 2006 | 02:08 PM
  #32  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

Originally Posted by Z28x
Maybe, but it would then be an E85 only engine.
Dont forget with GM's cam phasing technology and sensors in the lines I'd be pretty confident that its certainly possible to use timing to make up some losses when running different fuel, much like our cars have a knock sensor.

I dont know the mpg penalty, and I'd like to. E85 would be really interesting to see go all out (if its cheaper/uses less oil to make). Its not hybrid, hydrogen, or electric, but atleast its renewable, which is a step in the right direction.

Our Economy would be better for it, but I wonder about all the OPEC nations. Itd be interesting to say the least.
Old Feb 13, 2006 | 02:26 PM
  #33  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

Originally Posted by Geoff Chadwick
Dont forget with GM's cam phasing technology and sensors in the lines I'd be pretty confident that its certainly possible to use timing to make up some losses when running different fuel, much like our cars have a knock sensor.

I dont know the mpg penalty, and I'd like to. E85 would be really interesting to see go all out (if its cheaper/uses less oil to make). Its not hybrid, hydrogen, or electric, but atleast its renewable, which is a step in the right direction.

Our Economy would be better for it, but I wonder about all the OPEC nations. Itd be interesting to say the least.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

Hit go and it will bring up a chart. At the top of the chart you can click on the add your own price so it can compare cost to the currenty price in your area. Really for E85 to work for your pocket book. Gas would have to stablize at about 3.00. Though E85s may come down in the coming year or so.

Last edited by Evilfrog; Feb 13, 2006 at 02:30 PM.
Old Feb 13, 2006 | 02:33 PM
  #34  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

Originally Posted by Z284ever
Do you think that you magically take corn...which required energy to grow and harvest, put it in a silo, wave a magic wand and get ethanol?
No, that's not what I said. But I don't see how it requires fossil fuel to make ethanol. Obviously it takes electricity to run the production facilities, but we aren't exactly importing barrels of gasoline from the middle east to fuel our electric production facilities in the US. So I'd tend to say nuclear, wind, solar, hydro, coal, or some other source of energy is what's providing the production facility with the energy to create their product. Not fossil fuels or anything at all from the middle east for that matter except maybe the fuel to power the farm equipment, but I'd tend to guess that's of very little consequence in the overall equation.

It takes energy to grow corn and then convert to ethanol. If you can create more ethanol energy per unit for every unit of fossil fuel used to create it...GREAT!!...now we've got something.
Right... the energy it takes to grow corn is the sun, which by all intents and purpose is a source of clean and full renewable energy. I think you may be trying incorrectly to apply the law of physics that energy cannot be created or destroyed. What you have to understand is that it's not being created, it's just being naturally converted via solar energy. The only man-made energy required in the process is the energy it takes for the ethanol conversion facility to run, which has little to no direct relation to the amount of energy the ethanol gives us in return.

But what I'm saying is LET'S MAKE SURE THAT IS THE CASE!!. Because if it's not, it's just government subsidized corporate welfare which makes us even MORE dependant on foriegn oil.
Well, looking at all the rough numbers I've gotta say that it may take some fossil fuels to run the farm equipment, and then the 15% mixture with the Ethanol, but other than that I don't see how we'd come even close to more fossil fuel energy in the creation of ethanol, than we get in return from the ethanol.
Old Feb 13, 2006 | 03:17 PM
  #35  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

I was actually very conservative on my 10-20 gallons an acre to produce corn. That's because we do it the old fashion way. Plow, Disk, Field Cultivate, Plant, Anhydrous, then Combine which our 4400 is Gas powered.

If you use diesel fuel equipment and the norm today is just No-Till, Sprayer, Anhyrous, Combine.

Estimated Fuel Consumption per acre:

No-Till Planter: 0.35 Gallon/Acre
Sprayer: 0.10 Gallon/Acre
Anhydrous Bar: 0.65 Gallon/Acre
Combine: 1.00 Gallon/Acre

Total: 2.1 Gallon/Acre using conventional tillage practices.

1 Acre produces around 300 Gallon of Ethanol...

2.1 Gallons is virtually a BLIP on the map.

Fuel Consumption Usage Follow Link:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PUBS/FARMMGT/05006.html
Old Feb 13, 2006 | 03:25 PM
  #36  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

CAFE credits!
Old Feb 13, 2006 | 03:28 PM
  #37  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

Remeber too that only about 25-30% of our imported oil comes from the ME....so if we could reduce that percentage enough to tell them to keep their oil, then we've achieved some freedom from them.
Old Feb 13, 2006 | 06:06 PM
  #38  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

Originally Posted by Threxx
No, that's not what I said. But I don't see how it requires fossil fuel to make ethanol. Obviously it takes electricity to run the production facilities, but we aren't exactly importing barrels of gasoline from the middle east to fuel our electric production facilities in the US. So I'd tend to say nuclear, wind, solar, hydro, coal, or some other source of energy is what's providing the production facility with the energy to create their product.
You almost got to it. First off, coal is a fossil fuel and coal and petrol products together account for the vast majority of electricity production in the United States.

Mechanized equipment to till/plant runs on petrol
Pesticides are petrol based
Harvesters run on petrol
Transport to distillery-refinery runs on petrol
The "refinery" if it took all of it's energy form electricity is powered by coal or petrol indirectly*

If you ran all the farm equipment on E85, and most importantly if our electricity production was nuclear (like it should be), than the numbers would certainly be better.
Old Feb 13, 2006 | 06:16 PM
  #39  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

The technology for genetically engineering plants for increased alcohol production is probably about 5 more years out still. One of the science departments at Michigan State University just got a pretty big grant for plant-fuel research not too long ago.

E85 in its current form costs more to make than it produces. If anyone can debate otherwise I would be glad to see the evidence.

I'd also like to see what bio-diesel from soybeans and recycled cooking oil is capable of.
Old Feb 13, 2006 | 06:18 PM
  #40  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

Originally Posted by HAZ-Matt
You almost got to it. First off, coal is a fossil fuel and coal and petrol products together account for the vast majority of electricity production in the United States.
Good point; I was thinking 'fossil fuel' in the sense of refined fossil fuels. As in oil-derived fossil fuels. We're in no shortage of coal to my knowledge, nor do we import any from OPEC controlled organizations or anywhere in the middle east.

Mechanized equipment to till/plant runs on petrol
Pesticides are petrol based
Harvesters run on petrol
Transport to distillery-refinery runs on petrol
The "refinery" if it took all of it's energy form electricity is powered by coal or petrol indirectly*
Good point but I can only assume that quite a few of those costs are mirrored in the production of traditional gasoline as well. Refinery costs, transportation costs, etc.

If you ran all the farm equipment on E85, and most importantly if our electricity production was nuclear (like it should be), than the numbers would certainly be better.
I agree with you there that if they used what they sold it would help the numbers a lot (and come to think of it I don't understand why they wouldn't unless E85 has no adaptation to the diesel motor market? And I also agree on the topic of wishing we'd move more energy production away from coal. Too many conservationists flipping out over it though.
Old Feb 14, 2006 | 12:13 AM
  #41  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

Isnt there supposed to be a new Nuclear Power Plant in the works? This first in many many years? All our power should be Nuclear, Solar, Wind, and in the future, Fusion. With technology today, we should be able to ween ourselves off of Coal and Gas power plants. E85 to me looks very very promising. As has been shown in this thread, it takes a very small amount of petrol products to do the actual harvesting of Corn. The energy needed to convert corn to ethanol also comes from non OPEC sources, which is a good thing. With future technology from GM coming, E85 looks to be a very viable fuel source with virtually no added expense to the vehicle at initial purchase, little to no performance handicap, even the possibility of added performance with new tech, and the added to boost to the US economy....this all seems like a very win win situation to me.
Old Feb 14, 2006 | 12:33 AM
  #42  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

Its threads like these that show me that there is promise for our future.
Old Feb 14, 2006 | 01:07 AM
  #43  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

Detroit News:

Could biofuels be a bonanza for state?

Once a far-off green dream, plant-based fuels could be in gas tanks in less than a decade.

Deb Price / Detroit News Washington Bureau






Morris Richardson II / The Detroit News

"We're not quite there yet, but this is completely realistic," Michigan State's Bruce Dale says of biomass fuels. See full image

Related links

Ford shows off new Escape hybrid that can run on ethanol
Toyota exec says industry must take the lead on saving fuel
John McCormick: Are automakers building 'relevant' vehicles?
Alternative fuel production may depend on geography
Bush sees green in future of Big Three



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WASHINGTON -- Rising gas prices, technological breakthroughs and a push by President Bush are combining to make some experts think that in as little as six years, many Americans will be driving cars powered by fuels made of such things as switchgrass, wood chips and corn stalks.

The potential of ethanol biofuels has huge implications for Michigan, home of the Big Three automakers as well as rich farmland that is already the second-biggest income generator in the state.

"I've believed for a long time that this day would come," says Bruce Dale, the director of the Biomass Conversion Laboratory at Michigan State University, which for a decade has researched how to cheaply produce ethanol fuel from fast-growing crops like switchgrass or plant debris, just as is done with corn today. Switchgrass, sawdust and corn stalks are just a few examples of abundant, renewable organic matter -- known as cellulosic biomass -- that scientists want to turn into fuel because corn requires large areas of land to grow and is used for human and animal food.

"We're not quite there yet, but this is completely realistic."

Bruce Noel, a corn farmer outside Lansing who is chairman of the National Corn Growers Association's ethanol committee, says biofuels -- added to other cutting-edge uses of plants to make green substitutes for plastic containers, paints and antifreeze -- could eventually make agriculture outpace manufacturing as Michigan's biggest economic engine.

The latest interest in plant-based fuels dates back to Henry Ford's Model T, which could run on ethanol. But petroleum, which in the early days of the automobile was both cheap and plentiful, won out as America's choice to power its vehicles.

That could change, in large part by a boost from Bush, who in his recent State of the Union address spoke what may come to be known as five of the most influential words of his presidency: "America is addicted to oil."

Bush then delivered a mini-crash course to Middle America on how humble plants could wean the nation off oil imports from the volatile Middle East.

He backed up his confidence with cash: He proposed to boost research funding to $120 million in 2007 -- double that of just two years ago, and a big statement given Bush's effort to halve the budget deficit.

But the surge of interest in biofuels worries some scientists who scoff at rosy but as-yet-unrealized scenarios and worry that the country's insatiable appetite for fuel could turn fertile U.S. prairie and farmland as well as worldwide tropical jewels into modern equivalents of the 1930s Oklahoma Dust Bowl.

"It's a mixture of wishful thinking, lack of scientific training and downright lies by people who stand to make a lot of money out of this," says Tad Patzek, a professor of geo-engineering at the University of California at Berkeley.

"People are making outrageous assumptions."

Thinking it through

Environmentalists, while largely supportive of the move away from dirty fossil fuels, want to add much higher fuel economy standards to the mix.

"Just as we can't drill our way out of oil dependence, we can't grow our way out, either," says Don MacKenzie, a vehicles engineer at the Union of Concerned Scientists.

Because corn requires so much land to grow and is a critical food supply, its limitations are clear.

Production of corn-based ethanol is expected to rise from today's 4.3 billion gallons annually to peak at about 14 billion gallons.

That's far from the 140 billion gallons of petroleum used by Americans each year.

But production of biomass fuels, according to projections by the U.S. Department of Energy, could reach 60 billion gallons annually.

A report by the Natural Resources Defense Council concludes that biofuels -- combined with smart-growth urban planning and higher fuel economy standards -- could "virtually eliminate" the need for gasoline by 2050.

The new-generation biomass ethanol isn't expected to be commercially viable for at least six years. That's because it's harder -- and right now much more costly -- to make fuel from cellulosic materials than from corn grain.

Dale, of MSU, and other scientists are searching for a combination of pretreatments, enzymes and micro-organisms needed to break down cellulosic matter into sugars easily and cheaply.

Finally, a full-scale biorefinery must be built -- for about $250 million -- to demonstrate that what eventually works smoothly in the lab can also work in the real world.

Meanwhile, potential changes in engine design will help narrow the gap between how far a gallon of gas versus ethanol will power a vehicle. Ethanol achieves only 70 percent of the distance of gas, but that is expected to rise to 80 percent with engines designed for ethanol rather than gasoline, vehicle analysts say.

Corn's stock grows

Assuming the kinks are worked out, biomass fuels would easily piggyback off their corn-based ethanol parent's growing success.

The Big Three are positioning themselves to benefit from the growing use of corn-based ethanol in the 5 million flex-fuel vehicles already on U.S. roads that can run on E85, a mix of 15 percent gas and 85 percent corn-based ethanol.

General Motors Co., for example, unveiled the first ethanol TV ad during the Super Bowl. Urging viewers to "Live Green -- Go Yellow," it pitched its flex-fuel vehicles to environment-friendly consumers.

In addition, federal and state lawmakers are looking for ways to boost ethanol availability.

Michigan farmers have one ethanol plant in production in Caro and four more planned to open in 2007.

Environmentalists warn that modern farming has already made land only 50 percent as rich in organic matter as when the country was founded.

Removing plant debris to use as biomass fuel could further degrade the quality of the soil, they say.

Wally Wilhelm, a plant physiologist at the USDA's Agricultural Research Service in Nebraska, and other soil experts are looking for farming practices to protect the soil from being stripped of vital nutrients and organic matter in the production of biofuels.

"We need to ask all the right questions about soil up front to make sure we don't make grave errors in the development of biofuels," Wilhelm said.

Last edited by Z284ever; Feb 14, 2006 at 01:14 AM.
Old Feb 14, 2006 | 09:07 AM
  #44  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

Originally Posted by HAZ-Matt
If you ran all the farm equipment on E85, and most importantly if our electricity production was nuclear (like it should be), than the numbers would certainly be better.
Otto Cycle Tractors won't do it.

Maybe if the Tractors ran on BioDiesel.

They haven't used Gasoline in farm equipment since the 50's, 60's... Not enough low end torque. You had to wind her up before you dropped the plow, heh...
Old Feb 14, 2006 | 01:45 PM
  #45  
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Re: What's the deal with E85?

As long as we are dreaming about a whole new energy infrastructure, you might as well imagine E85 powered farm equipment.

Another thing to throw into the mix for the future is that perhaps we could engineer E coli (or some other bacterium) to make enzymatically produce gasoline from biomass efficiently.



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