As and end-user... here is what I care about most:

1) Is it cheaper for me to use? Or at least break-even? If it is, then I don't have a real reason not to use it, if it is readily available to me. I'd rather use less petroleum product. But, if it is only a few cents cheaper per gallon, and gets 5mpg less, then it doesn't pay me to use it.

Kind of falls in line with Hybrids... they are more efficient, but cost too much more to purchase and maintain to recoup the extra costs in a reasonable amount of time, so it is not cost-smart to buy one.

2) How much performance do I have to sacrifice to use it? I don't want a noticable drop in performance and/or durability of my vehcile and it's drivetrain.

So, at this point.... I like the idea of E85... but I don't think it really pays to use it, though I think the arguement is actually stronger than all the upfront costs of purchasing a hybrid.

 

Don't forget that it is 105 Octane.

 

Right now....with the middle East about to explode with the cartoon fiasco, Iran about to get nuked, etc... I'd be willing to pay more to not have to be held hostage to those nutcases any longer....sh*t's about to hit the fan kids.

 

For the love of god. It hasnt taken a gallon of oil to produce a gallon of ethanol EVER. Before it use to take more BTU to produce enthanol than you would gain. But it hasn't taken that snice 1994.

New refinery proccess will also use the corn stock and cob. Not just the corn itself.

But we will soon see how this well this will work:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/060213/1227783.html?.v=1

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/arti...te/state06.txt


A little on the new refinery process I hinted at. Note here there a future talks of building a large scale plant that will produce enthanol in this fashion.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...lines-business


In china the ethanol system seems to be failing. Of course, they might start exporting it to make more of a profit. They believe they can sell it for more to other countries than just thiers.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Business/13Feb2006_biz29.php


There is also a big plant opening in Canada. But I couldnt find anything on it

 

?!

The large family farm is a rareity today. Most big ones have gone corperate if I'm not mistaken.


Glad I'm not the only one who sees this.

 

Depends on what you call large. There are plenty of 100-5,000 acre family farms around here. Now a lot of 10,000+ in this area are corperated.

 

Yup, E85 mayb not be the miricle fuel, but every mile driven on E85 is a mile that isn't driven on middle east oil. We don't need to be a 100% E85 nation, we just need enough to stop importing from non-North American contries.

OPEC has also cost the USA about $7 trillion from 1979 to 2000 by price manipulation.

 

Agree. I have lots of friends that can raise a family off of 600 acres (if most of the property is owned - renting is another story). Although, the ones that are doing better dabble in at least 1000-2000 acres. And the guys who are incorporated are bigtime like you said 10k+ acres. In fact one large farmer in our Area goes down to Brazil to farm in our winter... Crazy, LOL.

Anyhow, Corn sold for $2.00 in the 70's...

 

I wonder if by raising the compression to utilize the high octane of E85 they could make up for that loss of power/fuel economy...?????

 

Maybe, but it would then be an E85 only engine. I imagine since the current engines run any mix of E85 to 100% gas you loose some efficiency.

 

Hey, I only know what I read. And from what I've read, at worst, one gallon of ethanol requires more than 1 gallon of fossil fuel to create. At best , ethanol gives back an additional 26% of energy - over the energy required to produce it - that is, if you include the the "free" energy given by the sun to grow it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like nothing better than to one day tell OPEC to eat their damned oil. But let's make sure that this "renewable fuel" doesn't end up making us more dependant on foreign oil. If it does, I'd rather see investment in shale or coal oil.

 

Wait... I thought ethanol didn't require any other source of energy to create... cetainly not fossil fuels?

E85 is still 15% fossil fuels so yeah in a way that's still using fossil fuel, but 15% is better than 100%.

 

Do you think that you magically take corn...which required energy to grow and harvest, put it in a silo, wave a magic wand and get ethanol?

It takes energy to grow corn and then convert to ethanol. If you can create more ethanol energy per unit for every unit of fossil fuel used to create it...GREAT!!...now we've got something.

But what I'm saying is LET'S MAKE SURE THAT IS THE CASE!!. Because if it's not, it's just government subsidized corporate welfare which makes us even MORE dependant on foriegn oil.

 

Threxx don't forget the fuel used to harvest the corn and process it.

 

Here in AZ, a brand new Ethanol refinery just broke ground. It was big news locally. It is supposed to be incredibly efficient, and is not owned by big oil, in any way........ shape......... or form.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

A gas refinery is trying to get approved here also. It is in the middle of the desert......... but the 6 people that live within 10 miles of it are fighting hard. This is also NOT going to be owned by big oil.

AZ really gets screwed on gas prices, as all of our gas has to be piped, or hauled in. Thus, we are at the mercy of everyone. It would be great if the ethanol refinery, and oil refinery would make a difference. My understanding is that both refineries will be owned by the same group of private investors.