.

You keep ignoring the BILLIONS on DOLLARS going back to JAPAN and EUROPE. Don't people who work for GM also pay taxes, buy homes? So I don't see your point here with this statement.

Really? I recall 1969 when the LS6 Chevelle came out. Weigh was around 3900 because of NO exotic MATERIALS. If I recall correctly MPG 14/18 with a carb and NO overdrive plus a 5/50,000 warranty. Can you prove that egregious 1/3 of the time in the garage? Or is this your opinion? I seem to remember that the asian import were good at what they did best then, cut grass!

The probelem with qaulity at GM did not start to decline until the 70's and you can blame the company, workers, union, government and OPEC. But your are right that if it was not for competition that GM's quaility would have continued to lack. But if you follow the circle around, in the end it was America's fault that the imports got their hold here.

Why is it not like that? I mean your country is supposed to come first? Your home country always see more of the profits that you make than the foreign land will. How is this not REALITY? Explain Global Business? The goal of Global Business is to open up markets to increase sale/profits. Then to start manufacturing plants in that country so you can become more acceptable and mainstream to the populace. Then it becomes acceptable to call this FOREIGN INVADER just another home country business because they pay taxes, employ people, ect. The only problem with this is that the USA always get the short end of the stick. Take Japan, they can export RICE here in the USA that we already grow. But we CANNOT EXPORT rice from the USA?
Again then please explain reality?


Have you ever been to Japan? They will go out of their way NOT TO BUY AN AMERICAN MANUFACTURED Product. SO YES, people do. I for one WILL GO OUT OF MY WAY NOT TO BUY A FOREIGN PRODUCT IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.

What you are not realizing is this, America has the HIGHEST PER CAPITA income in the world. That is one of the reasons that we are an importer vs. an exporter. We have money to buy goods wereas most of the planet does not have the extra DI to buy imported goods. So the solution to this is to help out THEIR economy. By building a few vehicles in Mexico, we are raising their standard of living and they will have more DI to buy other/more exported good from the USA. This helps out the whole country of America. It will also reinforce the presence of GM products in Mexico. Then after it becomes acceptable, then GM will not be considered a FOREIGNER. But the MAJORITY of profits go back to the USA, beleive that.

In the short run a plant the employes 1000's. In the long run the profits put more back into the economy.

What I find is how can this be this hard to comprehend? When you buy a Nissan, the majority of the profits(and rightly so) go to France and Japan. Some of you are sounding like with the global economy that whatever profits are made in a foreign land( the USA market is the biggest in the world and so are the profits/sales to made, thatis why this is such a coveted market) that they keep 100% of them here? Thast is repugnant!

 

Suaveat69,

As a matter of fact I have been to Japan many times and when I speak about cars from the 60s, 70s and 80s it's from the experience of owning many cars from those decades (while those decades were going on

Even my 2000 Z28 which I loved had several issues in the four years I owned it, two of which required multiple days at the dealer to work on...so although GM's quality has greatly improved, it still has (at least as recently as 2000) a lot of room to grow.

You also keep talking about the "profits" going back to Japan or europe...do you realize how little of the price of a car actually is "profit"??? The overwhelming percentage of the price of a new vehicle pays for material and labor...that means MONEY to suppliers and workers IN THE US for the most part.

Your view is simply 30 yeras out of date...it doesn't work today no matter how much you want it to.

For those manufacturers who have or will be been absorbed or put out of business, the men and women who ran/run those companies need look no further than the face they see in the mirror if they want to find out who to blame - it's due to their own bad decisions; not unfair competition or business practices of foreigh manufacturers. Likewise, for those that survive and prosper, it will be because of their good business decisions.

I think the real bottom line here is that some people simply hate anything they label as "foreign" and aren't going to let facts get in the way of their decision.

When GM makes another car I truly want in the price range I'm willing to pay I'll buy it - until then, I'm going to buy what I want and is available and not worry about the 10 cents on the dollar of profit that might wind up in Germany or Japan.

 

Did you read the post about parts content of GM and Toyota vehicles? Assuming Nissan is similar to toyota, GM cars and trucks would have double the domestic parts content. So if you bought a GM car vs a Nissan you would be talking about double the $$ being paid out in wages or profits to companies throughtout the US.

 

Then you being an older individual I find it more disturbing your stance on this issue. And how many American vehicles and products did you see in Japan while you were there??


This proves nothing, I know many people with Imports with problems.


GDP vs Market Share, take a look at how much more the Domestic contributes.

On the contrary, these views are more important now then ever.


This is complete liberal (not to make this political ) It is primarily your generation that has allowed this problem to occur. Now we have to fix it.

Anyhow, why do you think the Japanese cars have done so well over here? Cost, Period. They came into our market utilizing $2.00hr labor with steel manufactured by $1.00 labor and you wonder why their costs are so much cheaper? Yes they had major problems when they first came into the US, but it didn't really matter because they were cheap. They could sell a vehicle for less then domestic auto manufacturers and still NET a HUGE profit. They put this money directly into their bank accounts and R&D to improve their vehicles. At the same time, the domestic manufacturers had to lower the costs of their vehicles taking AWAY from their NET profit. Then you wonder why GM had quality problems?!

To continue, now said foreign company has aquired all of the overhead and research to create quality vehicles. Now they are creating good vehicles at a cost that Domestic vehicles cannot compete against. Hence growth in market share.

So what has this competition caused?! It has caused exactly what you all compain about. Domestic manufactures were forced to close factories in the US and go to Mexico and China ($2.00hr Labor) to COMPETE!!!

How could they not?! If they stayed with US steel, US labor their is no way possible that they could compete. So how exactly is this foreign competition good for the American people?!

Yes, I know foreign companies do manufacture over here, basically to keep people happy, but also for govt tax breaks. They would rather not, but they have to do some so the public doesn't revolt. Americans cost too much! (at least with Free Trade).

Domestic companies still utilize some domestic products into their vehicles. Do foreign companies?! Hell no, they may have some assembly and whatnot here, but for the majority its foreign. Domestic companies are doing all they can to try to keep what little manufacturing we have here in the US, but it is slowly dwindling away just for the sheer reason of cost to manufacture here.

I work in Industrial Hydraulics so I am in the American manufacturing facilities all the time. I also go to Steel Mills. Why don't you go ask a Steel Worker his thoughts on Foreign Steel. And don't mention your tendency to Foreign Companies unless you are armed. Anyhow, it is so sad to see our workers loosing their jobs left and right because they cannot compete w/ Foreign labor.

Bush saw this and imposed a Foreign Steel Tax. I talked with some workers and they all thought it was a light at the end of the tunnel. Sales picked up and they were able to invest into upgrades. But you know what, the Foreign companies have such a strong hold on our Govt that they threatened us with every inch of our life. And you know why, for once Trade was FAIR and we could compete. So we pulled the Tax, Hurrah, Hurrah said the leftists and Foreign Execs. Just the other day I heard that the Chrysler Foundry is closing in Indianapolis. Yeah, Hurrah...


I love German cars. But the Europeans trade does go both ways, and fairly equal.


Your ignoring the fact that GM supports American business and for that fact yes they are more expensive. If you would rather have domestic manufactures outsource all manufacturing to foreign contries just so you can buy a cheaper vehicle; I don't even know what to say. (Anti-Americanism?!!?)

Foreign companies have capitolized on our market and are laughing in our faces. If things keep up all we will have over here are Walmart jobs selling Foreign products.

I think we all should contact our Congressmen and lobby for them to make trade FAIR not FREE.

The sentiment for Foreign Companies in this Country when American Companies are struggling is appauling.



EDIT: Not trying to personally attack you Mr. Nashville, on the contrary I love a good heated discussion! Also open to ideas, never closed minded.

 

So what are you suggesting? Should we impose tarrifs on foriegn car manufactureres and subsidize U.S. car manufacturers? Isn't that one of the reasons the U.S. steel industry became so out of date? I guess thats a liberal view, but shielding U.S. manufacturers from competitive forces will only weaken them in the long run.

 

Perhaps we should impose the same tarriffs on products made in contries that impose tarriffs on our products in other countries.

 

I'm really not sure what the solution is. If I did I'd be working in Washington!

I agree with 91_z28_4me in that tariffs should be equal.

Subsidies, no I think the govt unfortunately hands out way to many of these. If higher tarrifs were imposed then the American companies wouldn't need Subsidies (hopefully).

The steel industry did hurt itself after WWII because there was such a demand in steel that they invested in Open Hearth Furnaces (Old Technology) to put out a crapload of steel fast. The demand eventually dropped and that forced alot of these high output mills to close. This would have happened with or without Foreign Competition. After this the Foreigns Steel came in with Cheap steel and have virtually never given the US Mills a chance. You can't upgrade your mills and pay your workers competing with Foreign products. So yes I think a tarriff would help. Would it need to be evaulated, hell yea and maybe eventually removed.

I'm hoping the problem will eventually fix itself. As the Asian markets become more industrialized inflation will happen and their workers will demand/need more money to work raising cost to produce in China, etc... I just hope the American market doesn't crash in on itself before this happens.

 

I wish I had specific figures at my fingertips regarding the economic impact of "foreign" manufacturers including such things as the source of the content of the parts in various vehicles and the ripple effect “foreign” manufacturing has on the US economy (good and bad)...Unfortunately I don't have them. However, I believe those figures are obtainable.

That said, this is an important enough issue that I think it's worth my time and effort to see what figures do exist so unless people are REALLY tired of this discussion; perhaps we can continue in a new thread after some research (I've been looking for a doctoral dissertation idea for a while now anyway! ).

Suffice it to say that for now at least, we are going to just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

In this country we have that right.

Yea, A new thread is a good idea now that we have permanently hijacked this one...

I have been looking for documented information as well, unfortuately; It's hard to find something that doesn't have a real noticable political bias. (Is there such a thing, lol)

 

Do you work for Nissian Robert? Nissian has a plant in Smyrna(suburb of Nashville) that makes Altimas, Sentras, Maximas, Pathfinders, and Frontiers. The Nashville area is exploding with new people moving in from all over, with all kinds of job oppertunities. I think that Nissian has played a huge part in expanding our local economy(along with the Saturn plant in Spring Hill) Of course this is all part of a trend that industry is moving to the south and leaving the northern areas like MI, OH, PA, NY, etc. I attribute this mainly to cheaper labor down south(no unions).

While we may be prospering in Nashville from Nissian, we need to look at the bigger picture. People in Michigian have the highest unemployment rate. Unemployment and crime are rampant in Detriot. GM and Ford continue to lose market share, and must lay off more workers.

So Nissian might be great for the people of Middle TN, but all of the money is still going back to Japan and France, not Detriot.

 

Again, what money is left over after building that plant? There is long term profit but nothing for a while. Its an investment.

 

Hello AronZ28,

Yes I do work for Nissan - I don't advertise that fact since I'm on this and other boards like it for my own personal reasons and not as a company spokesman. I do not and cannot speak for Nissan nor would I want to. Any opinions I express here are simply that…my opinion.

I'm sure many would like to dismiss what I say as simple bias but if I have a bias; it’s based on 30+ years in financial planning and analysis and on being a car nut all my life – only a few years of my professional life have been spent in the automotive industry at all; let alone with Nissan..

I am one of those that moved from Ohio to Nashville - I moved here without a job and made my living as a consultant for several years before my involvement with Nissan. All that to say, I do have a perspective on the rust belt and the mid-south that not everyone would have the opportunity to share. Although it's easire to measure the direct economic impact here; Middle Tennessee is not the only area of the country that benefits from Nissan or Saturn being built here - when our (the US) economy grows, everybody wins.

The contention that all the money from Nissan is going back to Japan/France is perhaps a true but somewhat misleading statement…all the money after salaries and suppliers are paid (and those suppliers pay for their materials and labor) and raw materials are paid for and stockholders (of which there are tens of thousands spread all over the world) receive their dividends. Many who engage in the argument about “foreign” Vs “domestic” owned companies try to paint a “foreign” manufacturer as if they are a funnel that siphons money out of the country but the only way that view works is if the rest of the economic picture is ignored.

That view is also indicative of people who view the economic world as finite…that is to say, Toyota or Nissan or Honda can only expand market share by “taking” it away from someone else (GM or Ford or Chrysler) but that ignores the expanding marker in total. For example, let’s say that in 2003 GM held 23% of the total vehicle market when in the prior year, it held 24%...that certainly looks like bad news for GM but an equally important question that is rarely asked is “How many vehicles were sold?”. What if GM sold 3.5Million vehicles in 2002 but sold 3.8Million vehicles in 2003…is it still bad news? I don’t think so.

Of course, some would say that GM would have done better in 2003 (both in terms of market share and number of vehicles) without competition from other manufacturers (foreign or domestic) but the logical extension of that argument is a total monopoly which history has proven over and over again is NEVER a good deal for either consumers or a nation’s economy.

It is in fact competition and the free market coupled with individual rights that has made America the most successful economic power the world has ever known…and those are the only things that will maintain our position in the world.

Well, as I said earlier, I’ll be back when I’ve complied some real figures to add to the discussion.

 

We won't be the economic superpower for much longer.

Current approximations are if China keeps growing at the rate they are now in about 9-10 years they will have surpassed the US and will be the #1 economic power. #2 US, and #3 India not far behind.

In fact, I work for an Industrial Hydraulics company (German if you all believe that! heh). Our facility in the US was opened in 1993. We opened up our China facility in 2001. Last year was the FIRST year that the US was not the largest country of sales.

We sold more in China and we've only been there 3 years, we've been in the US 11 years. Of coarse China has MUCH more industry then we have here in the United States and that is why we are doing so good. Unfortunatley, my market here in the US just keeps getting smaller.