I disagree with the comment about tourqe doesn't matter. My wife and I considered buying a Honda S2000 until we drove one. At low RPM it might as well have been a civic and I can't imagine winding it up into the high rpm range all the time, just to find the cars horsepower.

 

Wow, some of you have a VERY strange notion of what handling and road course performance is.

I own both a C5 and a Lotus Elise. The Lotus Elise will kill the C5 thru a corner. No question. But, the bottom line is that the C5 is a much more pleasant car to drive because of the torque. This is why the Elise will be replaced with a C6 Z06 next year.

Also, look at all the times on Top Gear and such--the new C6 kills the Elise on a road course.

BTW, the Elise gets worse mileage than the C5.

 

Just because most car owneres dont drive their cars like they are designed to be driven and marketed doesnt mean manufacturers still shouldnt design and market them this way. An Evo and STI are marketed with their ralley heritage but hardly anyone will race them down a dirt road. Most camaros and Mustangs will never see a drag strip and most Ferraris never a road course. So what?

Let me reword it and say that low peak torque is overrated for a lot of these sports cars. If you want a car to maek good hp, it needs to make good torque over its entire rpm band. A small duration cam that makes peak torque at 2000rpms then drops off isnt going to get the job done.

A lot of times when a high revving engnie is designed you sacrifice a big torque number for good power half of the rpm band. This is true for the S2000 to the Rx8 to the 360 Modena to the new BMW V10 M5. All of these cars make relatively low peak torque numbers at a relatively high rpm compared to their hp output. None are designed to be raced stopligh to stoplight either.

Having 500lb-ft off idle only seems to really be an American fantasy. There are other ways of going fast.

 

But none better--and none more satisfying. Period.

 

Just to add to the insurance on 4cyl vs. 8cyl

I priced an SRT-4 back before I bought the GTO. The SRT-4 cost the same to insure as my Trans Am and $300+ dollars every 6 months MORE then my GTO .

Chris

 

A perfect example! Thanks.

 

Very true. I'm partial to the Chevy V8 myself.

 

Let's not forget that Nissan wrings 300HP out of the V6 in some models of the 350Z and aren't haveing any trouble selling them at the anemic 287HP.

I wonder, however, not what the foreign manufacturers are going to do about their HP bur rather, where are the HP wars going to go in general and how long will it be before the govt. steps in and says 500HP (or pick any number you want) is simply "too much"?

Perhaps what we need is for the manufacturers and insurance companies to get together and come up with a training and licensing procedure that drivers would have to pass before they were ALLOWED to buy a 500HP Viper or 'Vette! Better that than the NHTSA dictating maximum HP/weitght ratios.

What do you guys think?

 

Covered my opinion perfectly! I prefer the torque for enjoyable driving experience vs. a car that can handle like it's on rails. I don't drive a twisty path on the way to work or really even while joyriding. My WS.6, with the few suspension mods it has, handles just fine for my needs and has plenty of power/torque to boot. Did I mention that I get 30mpg on long interstate runs

I did test drive an Evo because I think they are pretty cool cars. However, I just didn't feel what I'm used to until the boost kicked in and I had my foot down pretty good on the loud pedal. It felt very "peaky." Another quality I didn't like was that I felt EVERY imperfection/bump in the road. I'll sacrafice some handling so that I won't have to live with that every day...

 

To go along with this, a 25 year old friend got a quote for a 01 C5 and an 04 Evo 8, the Evo was $250 more a half than his current 03 Tiburon and the C5 was $14 more a half. The other ones he got quotes on (350Z, SRT-4, 02 Trans Am) were all just about what he was paying for the Tib.

 

As a former DSM owner (3 of em) my 1993GSX was more to insure for 6 months then a 1995 Z28 convertible.... The Camaro is more of a touring car. In the turns the GSX whipped through scary fast. It handled like it was on rails at all times. Lots of fun.

1) To the comment about high tech suspension - not necessarily true. Japanese suspensions even to the EVO are NOT high tech. Just precise.

2) An Evo comes in at 3250lb+. My GSX was over 100lb more. Not leightweight - but it was a good BALANCE.

3) Driving a turbo 4 banger on the highway at 75mph-80mph isnt much fun. Often high revving engines that go into and out of boost regularly. The 2L I4 Evo is rated 26mpg on the highway. Not that impressive.

4) Understeer. These AWD vehicles understeer when things go wrong. That was something about my DSMs (all 3 of em) that drove me nuts. Once you hit understeer you were screwed. Nothing you could do. And getting them to oversteer regularly made them very unpredictable otherwise.

5) An EVO is NOT C5 fast. If you launch the **** out of it, you'll catch it off the line to 65-70mph... but then they'll get to 150mph before you get to 120mph. Also launching that hard regularly blows shafts, clutches, that transfer case that seems to break wayyy too often, or even the transmission. I've done it too many times. Seen axles snapping a LOT. They just werent made for it!

6) 0-60 times, turning capability, and brake distances are all subject to conditions and driver. I've seen C5's stop a LOT faster then my 93 (large brakes with slotted rotors and EBC pads) could even hope to... Oversteer can be controlled, and a good C5 launch will not leave a DSM much, if anything, past 60mph. A good C5 driver wont let a DSM launch take more then a car length.

My Camaro rides very well. It's comfortable on the highway, revs nice and low. It cant turn as fast, but it has that overwhelming Tq that makes you grin. I love it.

That 500hp 4L v8 wont come in a sub $40,000 car. Sorry. That car will out-price itself if it's a common car, or it'll be some exotic/supercar. 4L engine with 500hp is a time bomb waiting to happen, and most likely I wouldnt want to warranty a fleet of them for 60,000 miles. So throw that dream out your window.

Imports will be fine for YEARS. And by the time it becomes an issue, the govt will either have stepped in, or insurance/lisences will be different. Besides the fact that a 400hp car scares a LOT of people. The imports have nothing to fear.

Why do american cars obsess with huge engines with so much torque?

Simple. There are two ways to do it. You can do it very fine, very precise (think BMWs) or you can do it the american way - overwhelming, rediculous amounts of gluttonous overkill. We americans like the "Brute Force" method. It works!

 

The insurance on cars like STi, WRX, and Evo are far-ranging. From my own quotes with Progressive, the Evo was especially high (as much as a V8 f-body) which I can only contribute to the FMIC.

But I agree with what SteveO said; I don't think the imports have much to be concerned with. The upgrades to the interiors/exteriors of the Impala/Monte are probably as big a factor in swaying an import-intender as the V8. And if they do get around to answering with a V8, it will surely be "high-tech" as well.

 

I think that is a very smart idea, if you want to buy a 500HP+ car you have to take a performance safty and certification class. $300 all day class (lunch included) teaching about responsibility, how these cars handle/preform compared to reg cars, and how to tame there power. Think of it as a 1-2 day 500HP drivers ed course. So people how much faster things can get out of hand with a performance car vs. a regular car. Maybe even make it another class of licence similar to the move for people under 18 to a regular licence.

Education > restrictions

 

IM GOING TO BEG TO DIFFER, my friend adam has an 04 OZ rally and I cant stand how cramped it is compared to alot of cars. And then he went and got some ****ty "racing seats" from pep boys that my large self can't fit in (6'2, 276, always told I look about 50 pounds less though) Even the backseat, still stock, I just can't get comfortable. Now I know its not fair to compare interiors when the prices vary so much, but a C5 vette fits me like a damn glove. I mean perfect, like I was designed for it, or it for me. The same can be said of the 05 mustang (not so much the foxs or sn95s, or 3/4 g camaros)
I suppose thats why I drive a lincoln......

 

i'm all for that
could give some people some jobs too and increase government money (which would be a selling point for them)