Tyoyota and Georgetown, KY
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Woah there Freud, no need to try and pry into my head. I'm not trying to downplay the significance of their contributions, only to defend the Domestics against what I felt was another unnecessary, cliche, and flat-out unfair presentation of the Domestic auto industry in the original article.
I'm glad they contribute. But like ProudPony said, I'm not sure international corporations are the problem or the solution.
I'm glad they contribute. But like ProudPony said, I'm not sure international corporations are the problem or the solution.
But in the long run who is lossing out?? Not the Import companies..so who is left??? the U.S.
I'm still trying to find the multitude of U.S. automaker plants in Japan..cant find them though????? ohh yea they didnt let them through the front door with the golden key on how to win in this unfair game we created and now wont reup the rules..
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Thank You! Nor does anyone who quotes from it. They are commited to the defeat of this great country, and the American auto industry is first on their list. Any Americans who can not see that...............well, they are either beyond help, or they too, are secretly commited to the cause! It would make sense for a mole to come into a GM site, and attempt to convert the non-believers with endless drivel, it can only help their cause!
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again I state that its not about the company moving in there..hell Kelloggs Corp could come in and build a new factory and distrobution center and you would get almost the same result. Economic boom. Any company that goes in there will help out a town..
The thing is Toyota can go in there and build without one big problem the UAW breathing down thier back. And Robert post it why??ohh its not cus its news..yea and what else wont you tell us??? yea I thought so...
cus he knows it gets to us..
The thing is Toyota can go in there and build without one big problem the UAW breathing down thier back. And Robert post it why??ohh its not cus its news..yea and what else wont you tell us??? yea I thought so...
cus he knows it gets to us..
No one has denied that any large company moving into an area for the first time; especially a manufacturing facility where manufacturing isn't a tradition, is going to benefit greatly from the company being there...not only has that not been denied it's already been said, including said by me.
As to Toyota and the UAW you make it sound as if there is something unfair about the fact the Toyota isn't unionized...is that what you are implying? If so I disagree.
No question it gives Toyota a tremendous advantage but there is nothing unfair about it.
There is only one reason why the UAW has not unionized a transplant automaker's plant - the workers in those plants haven't wanted the UAW...where the union has gotten enough interest to hold an election it's usually lost by two to one or three to one.
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; Dec 7, 2006 at 07:33 PM.
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boohyaa for quote:
has to be said..again if anyone doesnt understand the first few times:
has to be said..again if anyone doesnt understand the first few times:
What is not discussed is the fact that it is the increased sale of imports that has caused the domestic plants to shut down in the first place.
The shame of it is that the people who worked for Ford, GM, and Chrysler who bought Toyotas, Nissans, and Hondas and parked them in the parking lots at Ford, GM, and Chrysler are the ones out of work and don't understand why.
EXAMPLE #1) A Ford employee buys two or three Hondas over a 10 year period because they are cheaper and he likes them better, loses his job because the plant is shut down due to low sales. He now has the option of taking a lesser job for lesser money and living a lesser lifestyle where he is, unless he is somewhat fortunate and can get retrained or has to relocate to another (southern apparently?) state to get an equivalent job. A plant is closed, a city's economy dies, schools suffer, families leave... Ghost-Town, USA.
EXAMPLE #2) A US Citizen buys imported goods over domestic ones because they are cheaper and more available, loses his job because the plant (he works in) is shut down due to offshore competition. He now has the option of taking a lesser job for lesser money and living a lesser lifestyle where he is, unless he is somewhat fortunate and can get retrained or has to relocate to another country (like China) to get an equivalent job. A nation's economy slowly dies, schools suffer, families leave... Ghost-Town, USA.
Why is this (responsible buying to support domestic business) so hard to see? Honestly?
There is ONE TV manufacturer left in the USA.
There are almost NO textile companies manufacturing here.
Electronics manufacture is dried-up in the USA.
Appliances, furniture, clothes, shoes, you name it.
If it keeps going out, what will replace it?
I challenge ANYONE to disprove to me in concrete fact that "the conversion of raw natural resouces into tangible, sellable goods (i.e. "manufacturing") is the generation of wealth for a nation."
It's the first thing hey teach us in Intro to Engineering 101.
Why are the middle-east nations wealthy? OIL.
Why has the USA become wealthy? Steel, Agriculture, and Machinery.
Why is Europe wealthy? Steel, Agriculture, and Machinery.
Those nations with natural resoucres and the means to use/sell them become wealthy.
You can not "maintain" a wealthy status (much less create more) if you are not manufacturing something "consumable" to others that is worth them deciding to give you their money for.
Service-providers only slide money around from party to party, they don't "create" any physical, tangible wealth.
So getting back to the spine of the article... why is it that we applaud foreign companies for coming in and building plants in our country and hiring our people...
* at lower hourly wage levels than they had 20 years ago...
* with less health care benefits...
* with less community service and investment...
* and for finding a loophole to circumvent having to pay a tariff if they had brought their product to the USA on a ship already assembled?
Damifino. I'm not cheering. Or buying their stuff either.
I'm sorry. I think Americans have screwed themselves into this pickle by buying foreign - even back when they were truely imported on ships - because of their "it doesn't matter" attitude. All they did for the last 20-30 years was finance this shift in manufacturing and obsolescence of American labor with every imported peice of sh1+ they bought. NOW, the fat lady is singing, and we fat, dumb Americans are STILL throwing our money into foreign pots as fast as we can with the same "it doesn't matter" attitude. Plants are closing like crazy, debt is at record highs, foreclosures are at record highs, schools are underfunded, our education systems suck, healthcare costs are rediculous, fuel costs are rediculous, 8 million homes sit empty inside the US, roads and highways are falling apart, and we can't even get a raise if we're lucky enough to work at the same place for a few years. Meanwhile, the Chinese economy is on fire, double-digit growth everywhere, Japan has come out of their 15-year recession, and foreign companies and nations own 2/3 of the US national Treasury.
BUT we refuse to say, "Hey, something's wrong."
Instead, we say, "Hey, I just saved $1200 on my new ToyNisHon, so I stopped at Wal-Mart and bought an intertainment center and a new DVD player with the money I saved! Cool, huh!"
I swear... the rooster will come home to roost one day... sooner than many of you think too. Just remember stupid 'ol me that said this day was coming when it gets here.
and
Doubt that, very, very much. Go to any community in the U.S. where Toyota or Honda, etc. has built a plant and I believe you’ll find their community investment (be it in taxes, involvement in schools, volunteerism, charitable giving, etc, etc) is at least on par with anything GM or Ford has/would be doing in the communities where they have facilities.
A very recent case in point was raised in another thread which wound down just a couple of days ago regarding Katrina relief giving – once the figures were known, it was very obvious that the non-domestic manufacturers acquitted themselves very well compared to the domestic 2.5 and if you take their relative sizes into consideration (as in $ given as a percentage of their capital investment in the U.S.) the non-domestic nameplates gave well over what one might expect.
So you make more in one day than GM or Ford does in the entire year, yet you give the same amount to people/communities who lost everything - AND THAT'S FAIR? NOTEWORTHY? HONORABLE?
C'mon Robert... GM and Ford were already hurting financially, and they not only stepped-up first, but best. For a company like Toyota specifically, that earns enough cash each year to buy GM outright, to only give as much as GM... THAT'S EMBARRASING. NOT HONORABLE. I'm sure they didn't let the tax credits slide by for what they gave either.
I'm even more disheartened that I have to defend/debate something like this with a fellow American.
Loophole? Maybe we need to look at history a bit…
If memory serves (getting questionable at my advanced age), it was the domestic auto industry that lobbied Congress heavily to get those tariffs in place and which, consequently made building manufacturing plants in the U.S. rather than importing vehicles a wise financial decision for the import manufacturers.
Today, 60% of all “import’ vehicles sold in the U.S. are built in the U.S….is that really a bad thing? Would it be better if all the import vehicles sold in the U.S. were still built outside of the U.S.? Which scenario is actually better for the U.S. economy overall?
Yes, loophole. When the tarriffs were written, they expressly aimed at taxing vehicles in US Customs, as they debarqued the ship for inspection. No vehicle from the ship, no tarriff. Import companies saw a chance to invest a few $million in an ASSEMBLY (not manufacturing) PLANT on US soil and divert the 10, 20, 30% tarriffs they were being assessed, and the math made sense. To this day, there is still no significant tarriff on parts and peices being imported, hence the mass exodus of manufacturing offshore, and why more import companies wnat to assemble here. It's a 10-30% premium on each vehicle sold to them.
I realize many would like to see no (or virtually no) competition for GM at all (save perhaps for competition from Ford and DCX) but those days are very long gone and overall, the industry, including GM and Ford build far better cars today because of competition.
I welcome the competition... always have.
But play on EQUAL GROUND. Ford has manufacturing AND assembly plants in Europe and Australia and China. So does GM. They play by the rules of the land they are in. Only in America do you see outsiders bring their cheap sh1+ in by boxes, stick it together as cheap as possible, and sell it there.
I am all for buying “American” products and keeping jobs and industry in the U.S. and I’m certainly in favor of the U.S. being VERY careful of who we choose to trade and do business with…you’ll get no argument from me that we should not be doing anything that helps true enemies of the U.S. and western democracy.
Remember, an enemy might carry a pencil instead of a gun.
However, “foreign” companies (at least foreign companies that are not from enemies of the United States) that build facilities in the U.S. and add to the U.S. economy (rather than just take from it) are not the problem.
Might not be the problem, but they SURE AS HELL are NOT THE SOLUTION.
The shame of it is that the people who worked for Ford, GM, and Chrysler who bought Toyotas, Nissans, and Hondas and parked them in the parking lots at Ford, GM, and Chrysler are the ones out of work and don't understand why.
EXAMPLE #1) A Ford employee buys two or three Hondas over a 10 year period because they are cheaper and he likes them better, loses his job because the plant is shut down due to low sales. He now has the option of taking a lesser job for lesser money and living a lesser lifestyle where he is, unless he is somewhat fortunate and can get retrained or has to relocate to another (southern apparently?) state to get an equivalent job. A plant is closed, a city's economy dies, schools suffer, families leave... Ghost-Town, USA.
EXAMPLE #2) A US Citizen buys imported goods over domestic ones because they are cheaper and more available, loses his job because the plant (he works in) is shut down due to offshore competition. He now has the option of taking a lesser job for lesser money and living a lesser lifestyle where he is, unless he is somewhat fortunate and can get retrained or has to relocate to another country (like China) to get an equivalent job. A nation's economy slowly dies, schools suffer, families leave... Ghost-Town, USA.
Why is this (responsible buying to support domestic business) so hard to see? Honestly?
There is ONE TV manufacturer left in the USA.
There are almost NO textile companies manufacturing here.
Electronics manufacture is dried-up in the USA.
Appliances, furniture, clothes, shoes, you name it.
If it keeps going out, what will replace it?
I challenge ANYONE to disprove to me in concrete fact that "the conversion of raw natural resouces into tangible, sellable goods (i.e. "manufacturing") is the generation of wealth for a nation."
It's the first thing hey teach us in Intro to Engineering 101.
Why are the middle-east nations wealthy? OIL.
Why has the USA become wealthy? Steel, Agriculture, and Machinery.
Why is Europe wealthy? Steel, Agriculture, and Machinery.
Those nations with natural resoucres and the means to use/sell them become wealthy.
You can not "maintain" a wealthy status (much less create more) if you are not manufacturing something "consumable" to others that is worth them deciding to give you their money for.
Service-providers only slide money around from party to party, they don't "create" any physical, tangible wealth.
So getting back to the spine of the article... why is it that we applaud foreign companies for coming in and building plants in our country and hiring our people...
* at lower hourly wage levels than they had 20 years ago...
* with less health care benefits...
* with less community service and investment...
* and for finding a loophole to circumvent having to pay a tariff if they had brought their product to the USA on a ship already assembled?
Damifino. I'm not cheering. Or buying their stuff either.
I'm sorry. I think Americans have screwed themselves into this pickle by buying foreign - even back when they were truely imported on ships - because of their "it doesn't matter" attitude. All they did for the last 20-30 years was finance this shift in manufacturing and obsolescence of American labor with every imported peice of sh1+ they bought. NOW, the fat lady is singing, and we fat, dumb Americans are STILL throwing our money into foreign pots as fast as we can with the same "it doesn't matter" attitude. Plants are closing like crazy, debt is at record highs, foreclosures are at record highs, schools are underfunded, our education systems suck, healthcare costs are rediculous, fuel costs are rediculous, 8 million homes sit empty inside the US, roads and highways are falling apart, and we can't even get a raise if we're lucky enough to work at the same place for a few years. Meanwhile, the Chinese economy is on fire, double-digit growth everywhere, Japan has come out of their 15-year recession, and foreign companies and nations own 2/3 of the US national Treasury.
BUT we refuse to say, "Hey, something's wrong."
Instead, we say, "Hey, I just saved $1200 on my new ToyNisHon, so I stopped at Wal-Mart and bought an intertainment center and a new DVD player with the money I saved! Cool, huh!"
I swear... the rooster will come home to roost one day... sooner than many of you think too. Just remember stupid 'ol me that said this day was coming when it gets here.
and
Doubt that, very, very much. Go to any community in the U.S. where Toyota or Honda, etc. has built a plant and I believe you’ll find their community investment (be it in taxes, involvement in schools, volunteerism, charitable giving, etc, etc) is at least on par with anything GM or Ford has/would be doing in the communities where they have facilities.
A very recent case in point was raised in another thread which wound down just a couple of days ago regarding Katrina relief giving – once the figures were known, it was very obvious that the non-domestic manufacturers acquitted themselves very well compared to the domestic 2.5 and if you take their relative sizes into consideration (as in $ given as a percentage of their capital investment in the U.S.) the non-domestic nameplates gave well over what one might expect.
So you make more in one day than GM or Ford does in the entire year, yet you give the same amount to people/communities who lost everything - AND THAT'S FAIR? NOTEWORTHY? HONORABLE?
C'mon Robert... GM and Ford were already hurting financially, and they not only stepped-up first, but best. For a company like Toyota specifically, that earns enough cash each year to buy GM outright, to only give as much as GM... THAT'S EMBARRASING. NOT HONORABLE. I'm sure they didn't let the tax credits slide by for what they gave either.
I'm even more disheartened that I have to defend/debate something like this with a fellow American.
Loophole? Maybe we need to look at history a bit…
If memory serves (getting questionable at my advanced age), it was the domestic auto industry that lobbied Congress heavily to get those tariffs in place and which, consequently made building manufacturing plants in the U.S. rather than importing vehicles a wise financial decision for the import manufacturers.
Today, 60% of all “import’ vehicles sold in the U.S. are built in the U.S….is that really a bad thing? Would it be better if all the import vehicles sold in the U.S. were still built outside of the U.S.? Which scenario is actually better for the U.S. economy overall?
Yes, loophole. When the tarriffs were written, they expressly aimed at taxing vehicles in US Customs, as they debarqued the ship for inspection. No vehicle from the ship, no tarriff. Import companies saw a chance to invest a few $million in an ASSEMBLY (not manufacturing) PLANT on US soil and divert the 10, 20, 30% tarriffs they were being assessed, and the math made sense. To this day, there is still no significant tarriff on parts and peices being imported, hence the mass exodus of manufacturing offshore, and why more import companies wnat to assemble here. It's a 10-30% premium on each vehicle sold to them.
I realize many would like to see no (or virtually no) competition for GM at all (save perhaps for competition from Ford and DCX) but those days are very long gone and overall, the industry, including GM and Ford build far better cars today because of competition.
I welcome the competition... always have.
But play on EQUAL GROUND. Ford has manufacturing AND assembly plants in Europe and Australia and China. So does GM. They play by the rules of the land they are in. Only in America do you see outsiders bring their cheap sh1+ in by boxes, stick it together as cheap as possible, and sell it there.
I am all for buying “American” products and keeping jobs and industry in the U.S. and I’m certainly in favor of the U.S. being VERY careful of who we choose to trade and do business with…you’ll get no argument from me that we should not be doing anything that helps true enemies of the U.S. and western democracy.
Remember, an enemy might carry a pencil instead of a gun.
However, “foreign” companies (at least foreign companies that are not from enemies of the United States) that build facilities in the U.S. and add to the U.S. economy (rather than just take from it) are not the problem.
Might not be the problem, but they SURE AS HELL are NOT THE SOLUTION.
Last edited by Caps94ZODG; Dec 7, 2006 at 07:19 PM.
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Every time I hear the word "transplant" all I can think of is some transgender person getting something they need to complete the operation..making them something they are not..
wait...maybee they are transplants...
unless I get a better definition and call them what they are assembly plants..
unless they assemble transmissions.. not Transvestites..
wait...maybee they are transplants...unless I get a better definition and call them what they are assembly plants..
unless they assemble transmissions.. not Transvestites..
It may not be a perfect term but it's one that most people understand.
As was pointed out in another thread, in today's age of huge multi-national companies with operations in dozens or even hundreds of countries, how they are referred to is not always logical or 100% descriptive.
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From: New England
What is it your are suggesting then? Should all posts be limited to those subjects and points of view that everybody on the board already agree with? Is that what a discussion forum is supposed to be about - everybody dissussing why they completely agree with one another?
No one has denied that any large company moving into an area for the first time; especially a manufacturing facility where manufacturing isn't a tradition, is going to benefit greatly from the company being there...not only has that not been denied it's already been said, including said by me.
and one thing I love how your the only one who calls it a transplant..whatever you want to call it cus you know something it has no meaning like you think it does to justify your point. your the only one here calling it that..It for me means your trying to hard. If it is a "Trans" plant. Where was it taken from??
So why not call the U.S.: Host Country then???
Transplant, Host country? wow sounds like it is a parasite that is feeding off the host. Wow. Kinda fits too.
Last edited by Caps94ZODG; Dec 7, 2006 at 07:37 PM.
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Thank You! Nor does anyone who quotes from it. They are commited to the defeat of this great country, and the American auto industry is first on their list. Any Americans who can not see that...............well, they are either beyond help, or they too, are secretly commited to the cause! It would make sense for a mole to come into a GM site, and attempt to convert the non-believers with endless drivel, it can only help their cause!
My Basset Hound makes more insightful commentary than I've ever seen from your hand.
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From: New England
If thats drivel WTF is that? insightful commentary from a DOG??
thats not sarcasm thats just stupid pointing out something in your signature about an honor roll student now implying that to him...
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Originally Posted by Caps94ZODG
No Robert.. There is nothing unfair if you back what they are here for. <--. Imply anything you want to this
No Robert..I am only speculating but I can say that tactics that were used to make it a 2-1 vote were on par with something like ".Unionize and you can be replaced before it goes into effectand dont think that doesnt happen.
and one thing I love how your the only one who calls it a transplant..whatever you want to call it cus you know something it has no meaning like you think it does to justify your point. your the only one here calling it that..It for me means your trying to hard. If it is a "Trans" plant. Where was it taken from??
So why not call the U.S.: Host Country then???
Transplant, Host country? wow sounds like it is a parasite that is feeding off the host. Wow. Kinda fits too.
So why not call the U.S.: Host Country then???
Transplant, Host country? wow sounds like it is a parasite that is feeding off the host. Wow. Kinda fits too.
If you want to belive I made it up then fine...believe it.
If you want to actually learn something take 10 seconds and do a Google search on two words, no special charectors, just the word automotive and the word transplant and you'll find thousands of articles using the term "transplant" when addressing auto manufacturers who have bult plants in the U.S. I don't know who first used the term or when but Ward's Automitive used it as far back as 1988.
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; Dec 7, 2006 at 08:10 PM.
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I’m also not going to defend the New York Times…I have no great love for it.
However, when someone, be it SCNGENNFTHGEN or anyone else says that I’m “committed to the defeat of the United States” for simply posting an NYT article; don’t futher the insult by implying that I have no right to respond in kind.
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; Dec 7, 2006 at 08:51 PM.
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I'm not saying it hasn't happened and without question, Japan has not been open to importing vehicles into the country (without significant taxes) but I'm not aware of any manufacturer who has wanted to build in Japan that has been turned away.
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Here's the deal, take this to the bank.
Aside for the Camaro/Firebird aspect, this is primarily a GM site. Anyone who types the address into their browser can figure that out pretty easily.
People who like GM vehicles come here to discuss things with like-minded people. Having said that, this particular forum is for general Automotive news, but that shouldn't override the fact that people who come here don't generally like to see what they came here for in the first place cast in a negative light, directly or indirectly. I am sure there is a Apple/Mac message board out there with a "General Computing" forum, but it would be pretty bold to go in there making the majority of my time spent there talking about Microsoft. I would just not quite fit right, and it would cause problems eventually. That is the same with any typical message board out there.
So, it is fine to talk about other cars, car makers, etc. But to be clearly one-sided not even hinting at a promotion of GM here over and over obviously gets noticed. I am just going by what I see people are directing their argumentative comments to. Like ANY other topic here, if it causes problems, some things need to change. Arguing and dissecting each others words will not continue here, so everyone involved needs to make whatever changes necessary.
Aside for the Camaro/Firebird aspect, this is primarily a GM site. Anyone who types the address into their browser can figure that out pretty easily.
People who like GM vehicles come here to discuss things with like-minded people. Having said that, this particular forum is for general Automotive news, but that shouldn't override the fact that people who come here don't generally like to see what they came here for in the first place cast in a negative light, directly or indirectly. I am sure there is a Apple/Mac message board out there with a "General Computing" forum, but it would be pretty bold to go in there making the majority of my time spent there talking about Microsoft. I would just not quite fit right, and it would cause problems eventually. That is the same with any typical message board out there.
So, it is fine to talk about other cars, car makers, etc. But to be clearly one-sided not even hinting at a promotion of GM here over and over obviously gets noticed. I am just going by what I see people are directing their argumentative comments to. Like ANY other topic here, if it causes problems, some things need to change. Arguing and dissecting each others words will not continue here, so everyone involved needs to make whatever changes necessary.
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