http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...1/TOC01ARCHIVE


Big mistake, according to the article they are aware of the problems with the new Avalon but are ignoring the customers who are having continueing problems.

I wonder if the new Camry will inherit any of these problems

 

Interesting - if this is true and as widespread of a problem as the article implies, and not just a article trying to justify a predetermined conclusion, then this is definitely a good opportunity for GM to slip in and do some real damage.

 

Also this: http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...7&Profile=1041

 

2007 Camry is having problems too... http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0c20c4/0

 

An interesting quote from the article Wouldn't the Prius or Camry hybrid be the most complex vehicle Toyota makes? Also is that guy insinuating that if you buy a large or complex car you should expect problems? Sounds like Toyota's PR masters didn't teach this guy the right things to say, because we all know that Toyota has one of the best PR teams out there.

 

Yeah that's a crap excuse even if it is somewhat true - that's why Mercedes and such always seem to be so much more prone to problems; they overcomplicate things and rush untested new technology to their platforms. Toyota typically has taken a more conservative approach to introduction of technology in their vehicles, but recently they've been making some of their cars just as complicated if not moreso than others.

I would agree that the Prius seems like their most complicated car with the Avalon coming in second, new Camry in third.

But again, if complication really is the issue then how has the Lexus LS consistantly been the least problematic new and long term car made since it was introduced 17 years ago? It has never been cutting edge, but it has certainly always been more complicated that its Toyota counterparts, yet still more reliable.

 

Both of my Grand Prix's (especially the GXP) have as much, of not more complex electronics than the Avalon, and they have been bullet proof.

The Trailblazer had one of the most complex integrated electronics system in the world when it went into production and no one was cutting it any slack when problems cropped up.

 

Eh, I wouldn't be so sure of that. Outward appearances rarely tell this story accurately.

The Prius is indeed, far and away, the most complex vehicle that Toyota sells. In fact, it may very well be the most complex vehicle sold by anyone (I'm sure the new Lexus GS and LS will soon displace it from that title). And Toyota's hybrids have been, by any publicized measure, very reliable (some say otherwise, but I've yet to see any proof).

However, Toyota is aggressively expanding and at the same time is looking towards LCC ("leading cost countries") for less-expensive parts. That's a near-certain recipe for disaster, and I'm sure that everyone in the press will be waiting to see if Toyota stumbles (it's not so much a matter of bias one way or the other; it's more an issue of sharks loving the smell of blood in the water). Regardless, it's important to note that Toyota is one of the best, if not the best, manufacturing companies in the world. That says absolutely nothing about their ability to, you know, actually design something. Previous Toyotas have been rock-solid due to the use of surprisingly simple parts that were basically no-brainers to fabricate and assemble (that's a good thing). The company may have finally reached the limits of its engineering capabilities because it has relatively little history with doing things in a complex manner (unlike Honda or the Big 3).

 

Do you think it was Toyota's initial intent to become #1, or just because of their stout reputation it earned the title and accepted? It's actually rather ironic that the flagship models are the ones plagued with problems. Perhaps they tried to meet unrealistic goals they couldn't achieve as far as efficient cut costing was concerned?

 

Uh... you are deriving this from what? The number of flashing lights, info centers, and other digital readouts in front of you? A well designed high tech vehicle will have as much of its technology completely transparent to the user as possible. In other words not only will there not be a ton of readouts that require or at least compete for your attention, but you won't even be able feel/hear/or otherwise point out any of the systems in action - they will be seemless in integration with the rest of the car.

Go read most any review on the Lexus GS450H hybrid - the one thing I read about that car over and over again is 'if you look at the spec sheet, this car is one of the most geniously complex cars made - but you'd never know it by driving it. It just works and does so without anyone being any the wiser.

Again, by what measure is the complexity of the TB's electrical setup? Did you read this somewhere or come up with it yourself? If you read it somewhere, what was their measure of it?

 

Define "initial". Back in the 60s, was this their goal? Probably not. But the way the company has acted and moved since the 80s, it's not like they just stumbled across the #1 position by accident (Jim Press' "aw, shucks, we're just trying to do the right thing" BS act notwithstanding). A company does not go through and develop the sort of leading-edge production systems that Toyota has with the idea of hanging around at the middle of the Top 10.

That's my guess. While many people want to think that there's this monolithic block of Asian car companies that all think and act alike, it's clear to anyone in the industry that Toyota has been taking a significantly different tact on cost-cutting than, say, Honda. It looks like it might finally be taking its toll.

Sometime, there's a fine line between confidence and hubris.