Let's refer to examples, please? What +4000 lb production car with 18" wheels has great brakes?

 

Let me clarify - they still have their act together.

 

E39 BMW M5?

Regardless, that skirts the point. There are some very good brake systems out there with rotors that measure less than 14" in diameter, and I suspect a 14" rotor will fit under pretty much any 18" wheel you'd care to suggest.

 

You're not playing fair, Jake. That was last century's car. Different era and different safety standards and different (lighter) vehicle mass c/f to today's cars. Besides, that M5 developed 400 bhp compared to today's M5 which produces 500bhp!

The current crop of cars like Nissan GTR, current BMW M5 etc... have bigger wheels and big rotors. It's what good engineering is about as current cars are significantly heavier than the superseded models.

I still put out the challenge to all the people out there, show me a current +4000 lb with a good set of brakes under 18" wheels!!!

Forget the point about design over substance, that point is almost laughable in today's context.

 

Not really.

Remember that the discussion was never whether luxury items added weight or not. So now you're talking about an objection to a point I didn't make.

Never mind.

 

So power adjustments add 20-30 pounds per seat or for both seats? Would six way with manual backrest adjustment would be more like 20 and power backrest would be closer to 30? What about seats like the base G8 has (4-way -- presumably front and back, up and down, but no tilt)?

 

As I said before, debating about the existence of such a car skirts the point.

 

I think a 20" wheel with low profile tires looks much better than a 17" one that hardly fills the wheel wells like on of 5th Gen.



It's funny you mention this. I drive a Charger SRT8, G8 GXP, and my GTO fairly regularly. The Charger and G8, both have basically the same Brembo 4 piston calipers as the Camaro (originally from last gen CTS-V). The GTO has the same two piston floating calipers used on the F-body and base C6. That being said..whenever I go from driving the Charger/G8 to driving the GTO I feel like I am gonna rear end everyone in the GTO. I will gladly give up whatever weight to have them on the car. The two pisting floating calipers that GM was putting on everything have a repuation for heating up and spreading which hurts braking.

I know some oldies will go bahumbug..why do you need 4 piston claipers...but this is not some fad. It is a better performing part that has come down in cost where it can be an option on cars the average person can buy. No different than say fuel injection or 6 speed automatics.


Again..I will reinterate...I am all for light weight..as long as so much money is not spent on weight goals, the rest of the car is crap.

 

Trust me, I like badass brakes as much as the next guy - actually, probably more than most. My point was, that high mass creates it's own associated costs. I'm betting that the more expensive Brembos weren't the first choice for the SS. I'm betting the less expensive Delco, (or whoever supplies them), brakes just weren't up to the task of meeting performance targets on a two ton car. So enter the higher cost brakes.

 

The camaro most likely would have gotten the same 2 piston setup I mentioned above that they used on the GTO, F-body, C5, and C6. Those calipers performed fine on the F-body and Vette (as long as you don't track the car a ton)..but alot of GTO owners have had issues with them and warped brakes in general just with normal driving. GM did use the same style calipers on the G8 GT and Trailblazer SS however...so there seems to be no rule.

 

The G8 GT and TBSS don't have Brembos. Or is that not what your saying?


Anyway, the SS was considered the entry level, *affordable* performance model. At 3500 pounds, I'd think those standard 2 piston calipers would have worked fine and met performance targets. So subtract several hundred dollars in cost from the sticker for that. Now go through the whole car (at 3500 lbs), and meet performance and durability goals with less expensive parts. See where I'm going with this?

Perhaps a lighter car costs more initially, but to meet performance, durability and FE goals, a heavier keeps on costing you more.

 

Well, yes and no. If the body structure or rear differential is too weak, necessitating an early repair (a friend of mine had to spend over $1K on a new differential on his '97 Camaro SS about 1000 miles after the warranty expired), the lighter car can cost you more. The IIHS has been campaigning for full 5mph bumpers, so that they can get out of paying for repairs in low speed crashes. Full 5mph bumpers weigh more than 2.5mph-with-damage bumpers. If you ever have an accident with an aluminum body Audi or Jaguar, repairs will be quite a bit more expensive.

It will not be easy dealing with these tradeoffs.

Even we stipulate to the above issues, without knowing how much more it costs up front, you can't tell if it's worth it. If taking out 300 pounds costs $500, with no or minimal concessions to reliability, safety, durability, etc., then most would probably conclude it was worthwhile. If it's $5000, then it's a tougher question. If it's $50000, then you'd only spend it on a high end sports car like a Ferrari.

The main thing new CAFE does is tip the point higher.

 

The G8 GT has pretty decent brakes inside 18" wheels.

I don't see how the M5 isn't fair? It fit the weight and wheel size requirements you asked for. Who cares how much power or what safety standards it had to comply with?

 

I dispute the fact that the G8 GT has 'decent' brakes. They might be OK for a few straight line stops but they are far from decent if they are used for circuit work over a few laps. That's why HSV have monster stoppers under their 19/20" inch wheels... because they are 'race' spec brakes... like a lot of performance production cars these days and they maintain their braking performance under almost any street/race application.

I'm not sure the E39 BMW M5's brakes are any good if used for more than a few laps around a circuit, either. The E39 M5 is nigh on Camaro's weight but it isn't fair comparison because we're talking last generation's cars, not today's cars. Case in point, I'm sure 17" wheels and 11" brake rotors are good specs for a 3300 lb car but we don't build 3300 lb performance cars anymore. For the same reasons, we don't put small wheels/brakes under heavy performance cars. Anyway, moot point regarding the E39... so let's talk today's M5.

Having made my point, I can't understand how GM decided to go with 12" rotors on the current CTS-V (4200 lbs)?

I guess the term 'decent brakes' is relative as we're talking both street and race applications. GM generally always leave room for engine enhancements and I'm glad they also took a similar view with brake wheel/brake specs upgrades for Camaro... even if some believe it's overkill.

 

For sure.

Pretty early on, the Camaro's developers knew that they wouldn't even come close to their weight targets. NOT. EVEN. COME. CLOSE. But, old CAFE targets were a cake walk, and GM Powertrain could pull the fat out of the fire for performance and fuel economy. Yes, we now have a released, saleable product - but as we've seen from all the reviews - one that falls short in certain aspects of it's dynamics, etc.

It's really hard for me to imagine that the next Camaro would have the latitude of coming in afew hundred pounds over and still be pushed through. Especially if it plays havoc with CAFE numbers. The ironic beneficiaries may just be the enthusiasts, who can finally enjoy a lower mass, 'fun to drive' Camaro.