Thoughts on matching up the Camaro, Challenger, & Mustang
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Thoughts on matching up the Camaro, Challenger, & Mustang
Had an extra hour or so to mess around here before going to dinner, so wanted to engage in a bit of bench racing, or more accurate, bench comparisons & observations
Current Mustang GT gets 15 & 23 with a maunual. It's expected to improve by at least 1 mpg in both city & highway in addition to growing to at least 390 horsepower when the new 5.0 comes out this fall. Torque should be around 320-350 range.
The Pontiac G8 GXP LS3 is now rated at 13 & 20 mpg city/ highway. It has the identical rear axle the Camaro SS will have (3.27) weighs roughly 150-200 pounds more, but the Camaro will have more aggressive tuning which will likely more than wash out any weight advantage. Camaro will have 422 horsepower to the GXP's 415. The L99 Camaro should come very close to matching the G8 GT's 15 & 24 mpg despite having a bigger engine because save the bore, it is the same engine as the L76 in the G8. The L99 Camaro should have 400 horsepower. LS3s will have 408 ft/lbs torque, L99s, 395.
Dodge Challenger 375 horse R/T gets 16 and 25 mpg with both manual and automatic according to the EPA. The 425 horse SRT8 gets 14 & 22 with a manual, despite being in a bigger car. 408 lbs torque on the 5.7, 425 on the SRT8.
1. Fuel Economy
No one is buying these cars for fuel economy. However, it's worth these to an LS1 F-body. By the new standards, an automatic LS1 gets 16 & 23 mpg. Manual gets 17 & 26. Unless the new Mustang does better than expected, ironically, it's likely to be the Hemi Charger R/T to get the best mileage. It should top the L99 Camaro by 1 mpg on both city & highway. The SRT to LS3 comparison's gap is much bigger... in favor of the Chrysler.
2. Interior
Chrysler's build quality of the Challenger is a long way from the Sebring & Avenger, and is almost very good. Camaro is the most highly styled, Mustang seems the most well made. Personally, I'd pick the Mustang, but staying objective, I'd have to say it's a wash. What are you after? High style? Camaro. Comfort and solidity? Mustang. Room, comfortable seats, and a business like driving enviroment Challenger.
3. Exterior
The Challenger looks fantastic, the Mustang not as much so. However, it's obvious that there was far more work put into the Camaro. While all 3 reached back to their history for inspiration, Camaro essentially looks like one would expect it to look if it never branched off in 1971 and went towards a "European" look that over the years morphed into a 4 passenger Corvette. Chrysler took the old Challenger, and gave it a throughly modern look, and it works exceptionally well. The new Mustang takes all of what was wrong with the old one and fixes it. But while the Challenger looks fresh, and the Camaro looks futuristic, the Mustang looks like an evolution of what we've been seeing the past 5 years. Not bad, but the other 2 stand out far more.
4. Performance.
First of all, there are no slow cars here. Anyone thinking that one or the other is simply is delusional or spent too much time racing F16s. One might look at Camaro's power output, and automatically think it will simply blow everything away. But it's not quite that simple. Mustang has 3.73 gears that will no doubt carry over to the new car. Those gears should be enough to run with an L99 Camaro SS.
The Challenger also has very aggressive gearing. Camaro SS buyers opting for the automatic might want to be a bit careful picking races with the competition. Manual buyers will have a bit of breathing room. But not much. 350 lbs/ft of torque, 3.73 gearing, and a 3500 pound Mustang should be taken seriously when you're driving a 400 lbs/ft, 3.27, 3850 pound Camaro. The Mustang may be down 50 ft/ibs, but at 350 lbs lighter & packing that axle, it's not a hands down race. SRT8s carry 25 more lbs ft and about 150 more pounds. The advantage is that Holden is better at making dragracing capable IRS than Mercedes Benz, therfore enough power should get to the pavement to counter an SRT8.
Where the Camaro should shine is in top speed. All Mustangs (even the 540 horse GT500s) are governed to a Europe-like 155 mph. SRT8s are ungoverned, and should run all the way to 170 if not a bit higher. Camaro SS should reach at least 175.
5. Value
This is where things get tricky. In all cases, what each manufacturer is trying to get you to do is buy alot of options and add-ons. A loaded Challenger can go over $40K. You can price a Camaro right up to $45K if you want everything available.
Looking at starting price, Mustang is the best value. At $28K, it's hands down the best bang for the buck. But the Camaro SS & Chalenger R/T both have IRS. That almost mandates the $1400 Mustang "Track Pack" that sends the price to nearly $30,000. That puts you a breath away from the Challenger R/T base model which undercuts the Camaro 1SS by less than $100. But Camaro SS includes the manual which is a $850 option in the Dodge (Chrysler Financial wipes that out with a $1K discount).
In short, if you just want a V8 sports coupe or you intend to tweak it for your own taste, Mustang GT.
If you want the quickest, best handling manual shift sporty car and fuel economy is down around #50 on your list of important stuff, Camaro SS.
If you want a traditional muscle car where you can actually fit people in as well as their luggage, Challenger R/T.
6 Final thoughts
Of the 3, it's not how far one car is better, it's how far behind one car is. Mustang.
The Mustang has always been in the fight, and very competitive. But with the Challenger and Camaro offering IRS, and Mustang with a new nose & rear that's going to take some getting used to, it's almost as if Mustang is in a different class. What it initially had in it's favor (price) isn't that big a pull because prices creeped up the past couple of years, plus you need to spend an additional $1400 just to play with the big boys. Wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't for the fact that that one option puts the Mustang GT in the same price range (a few hundered dollars) of these heavy hitting handling. The question then becomes: "For a few hundred more, I can get alot more power, IRS, and in the case of the Challenger, alot more room or in the case of Camaro, alot more style". That one question will cost Mustang many sales.
They should make the Track Pack package standard, even if they jack up the price another $500 (probally still less than what the package costs Ford). That would cure the problem.
For all practical purposes, choosing between a Camaro SS and a Challenger R/T is like choosing between a Chevelle SS and a Camaro SS. Both are fast, both can handle, both have traditional profiles, and both are priced almost identically. It's just one is bigger than the other. Camaro's going to handle a little bit better and be a little bit faster, but what would you expect from a full sized car. And there in lies the dilema.
While I can say the Mustang clearly doesn't win in this group, there is no clear undisputed loser between the Challenger & Camaro IMO.
Current Mustang GT gets 15 & 23 with a maunual. It's expected to improve by at least 1 mpg in both city & highway in addition to growing to at least 390 horsepower when the new 5.0 comes out this fall. Torque should be around 320-350 range.
The Pontiac G8 GXP LS3 is now rated at 13 & 20 mpg city/ highway. It has the identical rear axle the Camaro SS will have (3.27) weighs roughly 150-200 pounds more, but the Camaro will have more aggressive tuning which will likely more than wash out any weight advantage. Camaro will have 422 horsepower to the GXP's 415. The L99 Camaro should come very close to matching the G8 GT's 15 & 24 mpg despite having a bigger engine because save the bore, it is the same engine as the L76 in the G8. The L99 Camaro should have 400 horsepower. LS3s will have 408 ft/lbs torque, L99s, 395.
Dodge Challenger 375 horse R/T gets 16 and 25 mpg with both manual and automatic according to the EPA. The 425 horse SRT8 gets 14 & 22 with a manual, despite being in a bigger car. 408 lbs torque on the 5.7, 425 on the SRT8.
1. Fuel Economy
No one is buying these cars for fuel economy. However, it's worth these to an LS1 F-body. By the new standards, an automatic LS1 gets 16 & 23 mpg. Manual gets 17 & 26. Unless the new Mustang does better than expected, ironically, it's likely to be the Hemi Charger R/T to get the best mileage. It should top the L99 Camaro by 1 mpg on both city & highway. The SRT to LS3 comparison's gap is much bigger... in favor of the Chrysler.
2. Interior
Chrysler's build quality of the Challenger is a long way from the Sebring & Avenger, and is almost very good. Camaro is the most highly styled, Mustang seems the most well made. Personally, I'd pick the Mustang, but staying objective, I'd have to say it's a wash. What are you after? High style? Camaro. Comfort and solidity? Mustang. Room, comfortable seats, and a business like driving enviroment Challenger.
3. Exterior
The Challenger looks fantastic, the Mustang not as much so. However, it's obvious that there was far more work put into the Camaro. While all 3 reached back to their history for inspiration, Camaro essentially looks like one would expect it to look if it never branched off in 1971 and went towards a "European" look that over the years morphed into a 4 passenger Corvette. Chrysler took the old Challenger, and gave it a throughly modern look, and it works exceptionally well. The new Mustang takes all of what was wrong with the old one and fixes it. But while the Challenger looks fresh, and the Camaro looks futuristic, the Mustang looks like an evolution of what we've been seeing the past 5 years. Not bad, but the other 2 stand out far more.
4. Performance.
First of all, there are no slow cars here. Anyone thinking that one or the other is simply is delusional or spent too much time racing F16s. One might look at Camaro's power output, and automatically think it will simply blow everything away. But it's not quite that simple. Mustang has 3.73 gears that will no doubt carry over to the new car. Those gears should be enough to run with an L99 Camaro SS.
The Challenger also has very aggressive gearing. Camaro SS buyers opting for the automatic might want to be a bit careful picking races with the competition. Manual buyers will have a bit of breathing room. But not much. 350 lbs/ft of torque, 3.73 gearing, and a 3500 pound Mustang should be taken seriously when you're driving a 400 lbs/ft, 3.27, 3850 pound Camaro. The Mustang may be down 50 ft/ibs, but at 350 lbs lighter & packing that axle, it's not a hands down race. SRT8s carry 25 more lbs ft and about 150 more pounds. The advantage is that Holden is better at making dragracing capable IRS than Mercedes Benz, therfore enough power should get to the pavement to counter an SRT8.
Where the Camaro should shine is in top speed. All Mustangs (even the 540 horse GT500s) are governed to a Europe-like 155 mph. SRT8s are ungoverned, and should run all the way to 170 if not a bit higher. Camaro SS should reach at least 175.
5. Value
This is where things get tricky. In all cases, what each manufacturer is trying to get you to do is buy alot of options and add-ons. A loaded Challenger can go over $40K. You can price a Camaro right up to $45K if you want everything available.
Looking at starting price, Mustang is the best value. At $28K, it's hands down the best bang for the buck. But the Camaro SS & Chalenger R/T both have IRS. That almost mandates the $1400 Mustang "Track Pack" that sends the price to nearly $30,000. That puts you a breath away from the Challenger R/T base model which undercuts the Camaro 1SS by less than $100. But Camaro SS includes the manual which is a $850 option in the Dodge (Chrysler Financial wipes that out with a $1K discount).
In short, if you just want a V8 sports coupe or you intend to tweak it for your own taste, Mustang GT.
If you want the quickest, best handling manual shift sporty car and fuel economy is down around #50 on your list of important stuff, Camaro SS.
If you want a traditional muscle car where you can actually fit people in as well as their luggage, Challenger R/T.
6 Final thoughts
Of the 3, it's not how far one car is better, it's how far behind one car is. Mustang.
The Mustang has always been in the fight, and very competitive. But with the Challenger and Camaro offering IRS, and Mustang with a new nose & rear that's going to take some getting used to, it's almost as if Mustang is in a different class. What it initially had in it's favor (price) isn't that big a pull because prices creeped up the past couple of years, plus you need to spend an additional $1400 just to play with the big boys. Wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't for the fact that that one option puts the Mustang GT in the same price range (a few hundered dollars) of these heavy hitting handling. The question then becomes: "For a few hundred more, I can get alot more power, IRS, and in the case of the Challenger, alot more room or in the case of Camaro, alot more style". That one question will cost Mustang many sales.
They should make the Track Pack package standard, even if they jack up the price another $500 (probally still less than what the package costs Ford). That would cure the problem.
For all practical purposes, choosing between a Camaro SS and a Challenger R/T is like choosing between a Chevelle SS and a Camaro SS. Both are fast, both can handle, both have traditional profiles, and both are priced almost identically. It's just one is bigger than the other. Camaro's going to handle a little bit better and be a little bit faster, but what would you expect from a full sized car. And there in lies the dilema.
While I can say the Mustang clearly doesn't win in this group, there is no clear undisputed loser between the Challenger & Camaro IMO.
Last edited by guionM; Feb 10, 2009 at 07:28 PM.
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Man oh man....
You stated the automatics gearing. The manual Camaro SS has a 3.45 rear gear and the G8 GXP has a 3.70 rear gear.
Let us also not forget that the Camaro has a 28.6" tall tire and the G8 GXP has a 26.9" tall tire.
GM is not estimating 23mpg for the SS so that it can come out and only make 20mpg. They are not stupid. It will be 23mpg or higher I think. Atleast equal to the Challenger SRT8's 22mpg.
Highly doubt it.
Have you seen all the plastic on the rear of the new Mustang? Even Mustang fans don't like it. Other than that, I think it is an improvement.
Ahh, the last Mustang tested weighed 3572 with the track pack (much likely to be factory in a 400hp Stang) and that was with the 4.6L and a 5-speed.
Say it with me now, "there will not be a 400hp Mustang GT weighing 3,500 pounds." 400hp and 360tq is already starting to look more like 390hp and 320-350tq and the current Mustang already weighs more than 3,500 pounds.
Also, 3.73 gears are optional, so are 3.55 gears. Not all GTs are going to have these.
This is so misleading. Would you stop counting dealer installed options or GM performance parts. A Camaro SS with all the factory options is less than $40k. You can option a SRT8 Challenger to almost $46k.
This is going to be the real competition, but I am not sure how the Challenger R/T will fit in here. It is just so much bigger and slower than the other two. Seams almost like it is going to reach a different type of buyer. I can see people cross shopping a Mustang and Camaro, but now Challenger.
This is so wrong.
What are you calling a little? I have seen around 13.8 for the Challenger R/T and I think the Camaro will be running very low 13's and high 12's. That's not a "little" in my book. And it is going to handle a LOT better I think. Again, I just think they are different cars. I would not cross shop the two.
Let us also not forget that the Camaro has a 28.6" tall tire and the G8 GXP has a 26.9" tall tire.
GM is not estimating 23mpg for the SS so that it can come out and only make 20mpg. They are not stupid. It will be 23mpg or higher I think. Atleast equal to the Challenger SRT8's 22mpg.
3. Exterior
The Challenger looks fantastic, the Mustang not as much so. However, it's obvious that there was far more work put into the Camaro. While all 3 reached back to their history for inspiration, Camaro essentially looks like one would expect it to look if it never branched off in 1971 and went towards a "European" look that over the years morphed into a 4 passenger Corvette. Chrysler took the old Challenger, and gave it a throughly modern look, and it works exceptionally well. The new Mustang takes all of what was wrong with the old one and fixes it. But while the Challenger looks fresh, and the Camaro looks futuristic, the Mustang looks like an evolution of what we've been seeing the past 5 years. Not bad, but the other 2 stand out far more.
The Challenger looks fantastic, the Mustang not as much so. However, it's obvious that there was far more work put into the Camaro. While all 3 reached back to their history for inspiration, Camaro essentially looks like one would expect it to look if it never branched off in 1971 and went towards a "European" look that over the years morphed into a 4 passenger Corvette. Chrysler took the old Challenger, and gave it a throughly modern look, and it works exceptionally well. The new Mustang takes all of what was wrong with the old one and fixes it. But while the Challenger looks fresh, and the Camaro looks futuristic, the Mustang looks like an evolution of what we've been seeing the past 5 years. Not bad, but the other 2 stand out far more.
The Challenger also has very aggressive gearing. Camaro SS buyers opting for the automatic might want to be a bit careful picking races with the competition. Manual buyers will have a bit of breathing room. But not much. 350 lbs/ft of torque, 3.73 gearing, and a 3500 pound Mustang should be taken seriously when you're driving a 400 lbs/ft, 3.27, 3850 pound Camaro. The Mustang may be down 50 ft/ibs, but at 350 lbs lighter & packing that axle, it's not a hands down race.
Say it with me now, "there will not be a 400hp Mustang GT weighing 3,500 pounds." 400hp and 360tq is already starting to look more like 390hp and 320-350tq and the current Mustang already weighs more than 3,500 pounds.
Also, 3.73 gears are optional, so are 3.55 gears. Not all GTs are going to have these.
Looking at starting price, Mustang is the best value. At $28K, it's hands down the best bang for the buck. But the Camaro SS & Chalenger R/T both have IRS. That almost mandates the $1400 Mustang "Track Pack" that sends the price to nearly $30,000. That puts you a breath away from the Challenger R/T base model which undercuts the Camaro 1SS by less than $100. But Camaro SS includes the manual which is a $850 option in the Dodge (Chrysler Financial wipes that out with a $1K discount).
For all practical purposes, choosing between a Camaro SS and a Challenger R/T is like choosing between a Chevelle SS and a Camaro SS. Both are fast, both can handle, both have traditional profiles, and both are priced almost identically. It's just one is bigger than the other. Camaro's going to handle a little bit better and be a little bit faster, but what would you expect from a full sized car. And there in lies the dilema.
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From: The Golden State
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Good post guionM. Though I think Chevy will have the option of offering better gearing and hopefully the gas mileage will be a little better, you make some very valid points. I like the comparo of the Challenger to a Chevelle, I was thinking the same.
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Largely a good comparison but I think you're underestimating the performance difference between the Camaro SS and the similarly priced Challenger R/T. Of course it's bench racing at this point but w/ over 50 extra HP (in LS3 form) and 150 or so pounds less weight the Camaro SS should lay a pretty serious whooping down on the R/T both in acceleration for sure, and I would wager in handling as well.
Sure, the R/T is still fast, but 50+ hp and less weight should make a pretty massive difference IMO.
And I think that when taking that into consideration it changes the overall findings you came up with for this comparison, as it does indeed make the Camaro stand out above the Challenger. Price is similar, MPG is similar, styling is good, interiors are both good in their own ways, yet the Camaro SS performs significatnly better. The SS performs more on par w/ the SRT8 but sells for R/T prices, that is a major plus point for Camaro.
Oh and on the performance category for the L99 SS, what it lacks in HP vs the LS3 I think it makes up for in the aggressively geared A6 tranny. It has significantly more aggressive gearing than the Challenger actually, I think the L99 should be pretty secure especialy vs the R/T auto. For the L99 SS, think G8 GT w/ 40 more HP and 100lbs less weight, plus an even more aggressive rear gear ratio (3.27 for the SS vs the G8 GTs 2.92). I see that as definitely no slouch, heck it may outgun the LS3 especially when you consider the potential for shifting errors w/ the manual...
I really cannot wait to see some direct testing of these cars. Honestly I really think the Camaro SS, both L99 and LS3, will rip the Challenger R/T up pretty good. Will be really interesting to see the true numbers.
Not to add more fuel to the fire but I'll believe a 3500 lb 390hp 6spd tranny Mustang GT at the same current GT price when I see it. (my feeling is it'll either gain weight, gain in price a good bit, be a special edition non-GT level car, or a combo of those). I hope they can pull it off as a GT though cause that will be a mean *** package for Mustang fans.
Sure, the R/T is still fast, but 50+ hp and less weight should make a pretty massive difference IMO.
And I think that when taking that into consideration it changes the overall findings you came up with for this comparison, as it does indeed make the Camaro stand out above the Challenger. Price is similar, MPG is similar, styling is good, interiors are both good in their own ways, yet the Camaro SS performs significatnly better. The SS performs more on par w/ the SRT8 but sells for R/T prices, that is a major plus point for Camaro.
The Challenger also has very aggressive gearing. Camaro SS buyers opting for the automatic might want to be a bit careful picking races with the competition.
I really cannot wait to see some direct testing of these cars. Honestly I really think the Camaro SS, both L99 and LS3, will rip the Challenger R/T up pretty good. Will be really interesting to see the true numbers.
Not to add more fuel to the fire but I'll believe a 3500 lb 390hp 6spd tranny Mustang GT at the same current GT price when I see it. (my feeling is it'll either gain weight, gain in price a good bit, be a special edition non-GT level car, or a combo of those). I hope they can pull it off as a GT though cause that will be a mean *** package for Mustang fans.
Last edited by Ray86IROC; Feb 11, 2009 at 01:50 PM.
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Blah, blah, blah... (seriously, nice comparison Guy... no, I really do mean it.) That said, I really could care less which is the better car of the three. I'm purchasing a Camaro because it is a Camaro. Price, fuel economy and styling have no bearing on my decision process. If there were no Camaro I wouldn't purchase a Mustang or a Challenger. Heck, if there were no Camaro, I'd probably buy a new truck! 
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2. Interior
Chrysler's build quality of the Challenger is a long way from the Sebring & Avenger, and is almost very good. Camaro is the most highly styled, Mustang seems the most well made. Personally, I'd pick the Mustang, but staying objective, I'd have to say it's a wash. What are you after? High style? Camaro. Comfort and solidity? Mustang. Room, comfortable seats, and a business like driving enviroment Challenger.
Chrysler's build quality of the Challenger is a long way from the Sebring & Avenger, and is almost very good. Camaro is the most highly styled, Mustang seems the most well made. Personally, I'd pick the Mustang, but staying objective, I'd have to say it's a wash. What are you after? High style? Camaro. Comfort and solidity? Mustang. Room, comfortable seats, and a business like driving enviroment Challenger.
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Mustang guys (and girls) will buy a Mustang.
Challenger folks will buy a Challenger.
The big pull needs to be the young crowd that is buying their FIRST car and has ni bias or preconception of the vehicle they want - they just know they want something that looks good, doesn't cost much, and "suits" them and their lifestyle.