Burmite

This is not a rant board. I'm growing tired of noobs coming here to vent about the looks about the GTO. Either do two things:

a) Read this board frequently and create a mature logical argument in these threads.

b) Go back to clubsi.com where you belong.

AnthonyHSV

I don't mind the SAAB look and a 900Hp SAAB convertible would go nicely...provided it was in my price range

Heatmaker

I wasn't ranting just a concerend customer.


What's the matter with wanting looks, speed, and comfort rolled up into an affordable package? And why can't GM achieve that?

I wasn't insulting the GTO..ok maybe I was..it looks to bland just like all the other Pontiacs. Same boring grills and big head lights. Atleast the GTO of old days was true to it's roots with the Hood scoop You knew what it was. Today the new GTO looks like any other Grand Am except this time it's RWD.

I'm only hinting at suggestions. Ford is WAAAAYYY ahead of GM when it comes to giving people what they want. They acutally listen. GM only assumes.

Maybe my post came off at a rant but many of you seemed to have missed the point. GM has no muscle cars. If you think a car that resembles a Family sedan is worth 35K you must be joking. 35K I'd take a Cobra any day.

Why even bother? The price tag alone seperates it from even being considered a Muscle car when it's heading towards the 40K tip. Atleast ford always stays in the mid to low 20's with thier GT's. GM just bumped the sticker up on the GTO in hopes of selling the Name...than the actual car itself. It's not doing anything new that the last Breed didn't do or achieve.

I'm just a Gearhead that wants a True Muscle car...not some idea that some board members at a Car plant somewhere "Think" we would like.

I wanna see a giant hood scoop that works. Big wheels on the back..and fenders that can easily suck up drag slicks. Sport seats with a vibration and sound free exterior. I want Slotted Rotters with 4 Piston calipers...and a Suspension system that can take any curb or mountain. I want an all aluminum engine V8 with a DOHC setup and a never ending Redline. I want real performance packages back and not just "accessories" either. I want to see engine codes: 383-396-427-454...I want those back in car brochures! Side pipes! Racing Stripes! Hood Pins! Bring back the American Muscle!

Knyghtmare

Amen dude, preach it!

Z28x

How is the GTO overpriced? you get more car for the money than anything else in it's class (G35, RX8, BMW330, Mach1).

Yes, you are right, the WS6 & SS were too hot looking, that is what killed them.

Thank You for your opintion troll

91_z28_4me

You want a retro looking car with a DOHC v8 and a hoodscoop. Bam 00+ mustang GT. Wow you want a lot and some of it sounds quite stupid to me. Hood pins on a factory car, hey but we ain't in 1970 don't want my car to look like trash. Sidepipes, GM cars never had sidpipes except the vette. 383,396,427,454, those are CID we use liters now. BTW 383 was never a factory Gm displacement, 396 was actually a 402. 427 and 454 are big blocks and GM has a new one it is a 496 yes 8.1L and it gets better gas milage than the old 454. Now the thing with big blocks is that they are heavy and big, to big to fit into a lowslung coupe.

BTW the 1st gen camaro was based on the next gen nova's suspension so it was infact a family sedan with 2 doors and a different body.

Joe K. 96 Zeee!!

Heatmaker,

Once again the pictures....

Grand Prix:
http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...prix-1963a.jpg

GTO:
http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...-gto-1965a.jpg

Look pretty close don't they? And lest you forget, the GTO was a family car....with a powerful engine! And it didn't handle well at all! Now you have a 2004 GTO that's faster than all other previous GTO's and can handle very well and it looks a little like a Grand Prix....I'm sorry if I don't understand what you're trying to say. Hoodscoops? They're being added in 2005. The GTO hoodscoops the first couple years didn't work.

DOHC? When pushrods can do just as good or better? Witness the 4.6L V8 DOHC Ford engine that just now is beginning to catch up to the LT1! The GTO is about as fast in the 1/4 as a 2002 T/A and will recieve an LS2 engine in the future.

What you describe doesn't exist....IN ANY LINEUP!

P.S. GM has a 366 and 403 on the way.....

96_Camaro_B4C

HEATMAKER. STOP. PLEASE. JUST... STOP.

guionM

God, I'm starting to love these posts!

Allow me to address your points here.

1. "What's the matter with wanting looks, speed, and comfort rolled up into an affordable package? And why can't GM achieve that?"

It takes an average of 3-4 years for a new car to make it's way through the system. Everything just coming out today has it's beginings at least in 1999 to 2000. Gm was under different management that IMHO didn't understand the car business. GM's new management team (came into play in 2001) won't have their cars out till 2005 at the earliest.

2. "I wasn't insulting the GTO..ok maybe I was..it looks to bland just like all the other Pontiacs. Same boring grills and big head lights. Atleast the GTO of old days was true to it's roots with the Hood scoop You knew what it was. Today the new GTO looks like any other Grand Am except this time it's RWD."

As pointed out, GTO has always been a engine package in a family car. GTO's only common factor was a usually fake hood scoop & a big engine. Otherwise, it was a boing family car. The new GTO is every bit a GTO as any other past Goats, except the cartoonish "Judge" and the rather gaudy Ventura. This comes not just from me but also from Jim Wagners & John DeLorean, the 2 people who created the GTO in the 1st place, and guided it throughout the 60s.

3. "Ford is WAAAAYYY ahead of GM when it comes to giving people what they want. They acutally listen. GM only assumes."

Again, comparing the philosophy of both Ford & GM of the late 90s, one would think that. But since then Ford imploded, and had to recover. The result will be felt over the next few years, as Ford has had to gut Lincoln's product plans (a full line of BMW-like RWD cars), and had to reign in costs on Mustang and changed their midsize car from RWD based to FWDs based on Mazda and Volvo chassis.

I'll agree with you that Ford seems to listen to it's customers more. But Ford is a much smaller company than GM, and has a history of granting autonomy and CEOs that tend to have a little more pull within a corperation.

4. "Why even bother? The price tag alone seperates it from even being considered a Muscle car when it's heading towards the 40K tip. Atleast ford always stays in the mid to low 20's with thier GT's. GM just bumped the sticker up on the GTO in hopes of selling the Name...than the actual car itself. It's not doing anything new that the last Breed didn't do or achieve."

Two words: Ford Cobra. It runs $34,000. There is a really stupid idea running in so-called Muscle Car "enthusiasts" circles that muscle cars of the 60s were dirt cheap and given away like candy. Truth is the most powerful engines in muscle cars nearly doubled the base price of these cars, and typically less than 5% of these cars had the top engine. A Tempest that ran around $2,000 went for over $4,000 in prime GTO form. It was the out of control price of Muscle cars that created the "Heavy Chevy", the Buick GS, and a whole host of "near muscle" cars. If you can't afford a $32,000 GTO or Mustang Cobra, then there's perfectly good $25,000 Mustang GT, or an even quicker Neon SRT-4 for under $20 grand.

5. "I wanna see a giant hood scoop that works. Big wheels on the back..and fenders that can easily suck up drag slicks. Sport seats with a vibration and sound free exterior. I want Slotted Rotters with 4 Piston calipers...and a Suspension system that can take any curb or mountain. I want an all aluminum engine V8 with a DOHC setup and a never ending Redline. I want real performance packages back and not just "accessories" either. I want to see engine codes: 383-396-427-454...I want those back in car brochures! Side pipes! Racing Stripes! Hood Pins! Bring back the American Muscle!"

Perhaps we should bring back the "mullet" , big chrome bumpers, and column shift 3 speed manual shifters too while we're at it, huh?

Sorry to break it to ya, but the majority of hood scoops on cars were just decorative, and even the functional ones really didn't do anything (Pontiac's engineers even admitted Ram Air GTO's scoops were more decorative than functional). Big Wheels on the back and fenders that easily handle drag slicks? Why? For looks?

You my friend are living in a fantasy. You probally don't realize that pretty much every car produced today can darn near flatten every comparatable car from the 60s.

Mustangs? The quickest & fastest factory ones ever made are in Ford's showroom TODAY. Corvette? Ditto. The quickest & Fastest Camaros ever made? The final Z28. The ZL-1 was not a regular production engine, and it was no quicker than the last LS-1 Z28s. Impala? Today's is about as quick as any big block Impys from the past, and the new supercharged SS is quicker still. A Neon SRT-4 is quicker & has a far and away higher top speed than any factory Chevelle SS. Infact, most Chevelle SSs (the SS 350) can not out run a modern Chevy Malibu. And this has nothing to do with improved tires.

None wear 383, 396, 427, or 454 badges or have side pipes. None need to.

Welcome to the modern age of muscle cars.

Z284ever

The true key to success would be rear air shocks and yellow traction bars.

Darth Xed

L.A. Z

Thanks Guion....

Heatmaker =

It was obvious that this guy knew nothing of which he spoke.

GM will sell every GTO they bring in this year. Dont they have a great many spoken for already?

I love the car. Id most definatly be interested if I was a little more finacially stable, and didnt know that the next few years of GTO's will be better.

Ponykillr

Im with him. I hate most of the new stuff out including my Z28. Look at the trash GM puts on these "muscle cars" take the rear end ofr example need i say more? Evne when GM gets it right with a good motor like the LS1 they dont offer it in anything. Well they had the 10 year old body of a camaro that sold well......ha. Then they charged way too much for it.

If GM was serious about making muscle cars they throw a LS1 in the Vibe GT or the Malabu. I personally love ugly fast cars. Muscle cars are cooler when they look like a pig i think. Im all for the Muscle regalia also. Hood pins, stripes, un needed hood scoops (if it has the power to sport this crap) wacky paint jobs and etc.

As for the prices being comparable your wrong. The GTO was built so a working class father could buy one for his son. Lets travle back in time to the 60s. You could spend a lot of money on the big name cars just like now. You could also afford some real muscle cars for less than $3000 ie Dodge Dart Swinger 340. Kids with part time jobs back then could actually buy a fast cool car with a part time job in HS working full time in the summer. This is the days before finacing the **** out of stuff also.

In the early 60s it was not hard to find Vettes in HS parking lots also.

My answer to GM: Throw a LS1 in a malabu and call it a day at $25000. They would sell like crazy. Offer it in a manual and give it some really slick options. Gm lacks most on options. The 60s had options now we get A B or C.

stars1010

What other regulars like me in here are getting really sick of this forum. It seems like for the last few days uneducated people (not stupid just don’t know what they are talking about) have been coming in here and just ranting and raving. I swear I’m getting really sick of seeing this crap over and over. If ya don’t like it oh well. There are millions of people in the US. I know GM will find 18,000 people to sell these GTO’s to. And hey you know what GM doesn’t need you, (Heatmaker) to sell them either. They will sell every last one just fine. GM will also crush all of it competition by the end of this decade.


I don’t even know how to respond to that. The Malibu is the car for the everyday person. The people who buy this could care less if there was 500hp LS7 or two squirrels running on a wheel to get it to move as long as it was reliable and comfortable. The Malibu is like an appliance. It doesn’t need to be fast. That’s not what its marketed for. Its to get people from point A to point B with no problems.
I haven’t even gotten into the engineering problems this would cause. There’s a little more than just “throwing it in”. Would you want to drive a FWD LS1? I don’t think there is a FWD tranny that could even take that abuse. Or you could spend millions and create a brand new platform and make it RWD. But then I guess all this modification to a car which is fine as it is ok in your mind, LOL because you could just sell them to everyone for $25,000. Oh I could keep going but I’m not….. Hahahahaha…………oh man get a clue……Or just wait for the ‘07 Camaro.

I'm stressed I need a nap........

Ponykillr

Yeah and the Nova 396 was a horrid failure. Your right. It seems when you have an opinion its an educated fact and you are right. When others have a differing opinion they are flat out wrong. If GM had their heads out of their asses they would not be making FWD only crap anyways. I know engineering is an issue when you are "Throwing in engines" thinking up such hard issies to point out must have made you tired. Go take your nap.

BTW what is all the talk over going RWD platforms if they dont need to put V8s in the cars? Need is exactly what the Muscle car idea is against. No one "needs" a muscle car. The whole point was to take a car that does not need to go fast and make it fast as ****.