Totally. A package not a model. It was a package even on the fourth gen.

 

No comments on this?

I was kind of excited about the idea.... it would certainly give the SS a different character than the Z28!!

 

In the last few years, the SS outsold the Z28.

 

Drop the Z28! It was instituted only as a road racer in the SCCA Trans-Am series, and therefore had a high-revving, limited displacement engine. It was more of a specialized performance car than a street machine.

Retain the SS as the V-8 version of the Camaro. (That's why there's no Corvette SS--because all 'Vettes have V-8s, there's no non-sporty "base" model.)

Revive the RS designation as an appearance/luxury package

 

Those sales #'s are right there with the Cobra's sales (which it competes with trim wise). On the other hand, the z and base were getting outsold 4/5 to 1 by the base Mustang and GT's. It looks to me like the SS was the only trim that didn't have as much trouble selling. For a limited run sub-30k car car, 5 to 10 thousand copies of the SS being sold aint bad. The z's on the other hand should have sold 5 times as much, which they haven't, and the base camaro was a seen as a big sales failure by GM. Even at 5k to 10k units, the SS would constitute 12.5-25% of all camaro sales. The cobra on the other hand only makes up 5% of Mustang sales, yet they (ford) still see the Cobra as a success. This is what i meant.

 

Yeah, I know what you mean.

My point is that late 4th gen sales figures were dismal. GM couldn't or wouldn't sell more F-bodies. They focused on selling afew overpriced, high profit cars...and threw the rest to sharks.

This may have been a good strategy under the conditions that the 4th gen was under....but not if you want to move 100,000 units per year.

 

I agree with you RS comment. I totally disagree with the other. SS was a trim package even on the 4th gen. If I remember correctly in every Z28 test it either performed the same or better than the SS because it weighed less. As for the 1st/2nd gen the Z28 out performed the SS by a big margin. Even the SS 396. I would also love to have the Z28 as you described it, BTW thats what a Z28 is supposed to be. The SS should be the soft V8 version for the masses with all the luxury options.

 

I'll comment .

I had a similar idea, but as an option on the base car in place of a S/c'er. I thought that'd suite the everyday consumer better and help bring in more sales than a S/c'er option. It would also make the base car more practical since performance isn't its strongest point.

The idea isn't bad on the SS. My only gripe is that the v8 models are heavy as is. Throw in an AWD system on the already heavy SS, and you'll have a car heavier than the current 03 Cobra. Throw in IRS too and you're talking one heavy SS.

Since the z28 and SS are also popular drag cars and capable of big HP #'s, AWD would mean the potential for more parts breakage and cost of fixing when pushed to the limits. I'd rather break 1 axle rather than 2. The base cars usually aren't subjected to this, so i thought it'd suite them a little more. There's also that issue of extra drivetrain loss and a weakened top-end. Porsche is a classic example, their fastest cars are all RWD (GT2, Carrera GT).

For the average consumer though, the practicality would more than make up for everything i've mentioned. Especially if the SS is positioned as the luxury model. I'd personally be all over it. I could use a car like that here in MN. I'm now looking at the 1st gen Turbo AWD DSM's as a winter beater/project car. An AWD SS would have fit me more though.

 

I agree and think GM is to blame. Sales success lies (sp??) in the cheaper cars. If they don't sell, then there isn't much selling going on. They make or break a car's sales success, and that's common sense.

For some reason, they made the SS seem more appealing. Maybe they had plans for the SS selling 80k units. Big mistake since SS's alone wouldn't get you over 100grand. The big players are the base and Z28 models which GM for the most part has neglected.

 

steves,

The Z28 for '67'-69 was not a quarter miler. It was no match for the top SS (375-hp L78 396 in '67 and '68; L89 in '69).

1967 Z28
14.8 at 96 mph (Camaro by Steve Statham, p. 35)
14.85 at 101 mph (Kings of the Street, p. 69)

1967 SS 396
14.5 at 95 mph (4-speed; probably L35, which was not the top engine; (Camaro, p. 35)
14.5 at 99 mph (4-speed; L35, which was not the top engine; Kings of the Street, p. 67)

1968 Z28
14.9 at 100 mph (Camaro by Steve Statham, p. 44)

1968 SS 396

1969 Z28
15.12 at 94.8 mph (Kings of the Street, p. 123; difficulty launching in this test as reported in Camaro by Steve Statham, p. 62)
14.34 at 101 mph (modified gears to 4.56:1; Camaro by Steve Statham, p. 58)

1969 SS 396
13.00 at 108.62 (M-22 4-speed; L89; 4.88:1 gears; fully stock; Camaro by Steve Statham, p. 55)
14.7 at 98.7 mph (4-speed; L78, which was not the top engine; Kings of the Street, p. 121)
14.77 at 98.72 (4-speed; L78, which was not the top engine; Camaro by Steve Statham, p. 54)

1970 Z28
14.4 at 99.1 mph (Kings of the Street, p. 171)
14.2 at 100 mph (auto with 4.10:1 gears; Camaro by Steve Statham, p. 77)
14.5 at 98 mph (Camaro by Steve Statham, p. 78)

1970 SS 396
15.3 at 92.7 (not sure if L34 or L78; 4-speed; Camaro by Steve Statham, p. 78)

These result are from commonly accepted magazine tests of the day, and most are also seen here.

 

This SS vs Z28 subject has more sequels than "Halloween!!

Just the same, hate to break the news but SteveL is right. Z28 was the track car, SS was the quartermiler.

Z28 was a package, and in fact the option code for it was "Z28". SS was a trim package, BUT it also had the biggest engine, the most torque, and it's top engine was not available on any other Camaro.

That having been said, Z28 has a longer & greater history than the Camaro SS. The Z28 name is part of Camaro history (as opposed to SS which is generic Chevrolet).

In short, yes SS was quicker, but Z28 is to Camaro what GT is to Mustang. Only more.

 

Insightful observation! I'd never thought of it that way before.

 

Did you look at that link? The times posted for the Z28 on that link are quicker than the ones you posted. I don't have any info at this point in time to back up my statement, but I know that a Z28 was faster than the SS.

 

The ET for the 1967 Z28 on that page is suspciously quick (13.75 at 105). The trap speed is surely too high.

I haven't been able to locate quarter mile results for the top SS 396s for '67 and '68 (L78 in '67, L89 in '68). Errata: despite my earlier post, the aluminum-headed L89 was available in 1968.

Here's a good summary of the first gen, with some performance measurements: http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...istory-1.shtml

 

Not so suspicious. I've seen contemporary road tests of more than one 1st gen Z/28 getting into the 13's. Especially if it was equipped with the optional Crossram with 2x4 Holleys, optional cam, optional headers and exhaust...and really stiff gear like a 4.56.

You probably wouldn't want to drive it during rush hour...but it seemed to put out the ponies. Figure 400hp....and 7200rpm shift points.

You've never really believed that 290 horse rating ....did you?


Also, I've noticed that you've only included the fastest big block times. The more common 350SS 1/4 mile times are also there.