Z28x

It is time for the C7.

SSbaby

I don't believe so and here is the reason why...

When you downsize a vehicle, you also downsize its "proportions". You don't get a nice driving position when you narrow up and shorten a vehicle because it's gonna look like it's got a high forehead. Stylists also reduce height to make the car look proportional... which invariably compromises interior space and leads to a low slung driving position.

Now that I have my logic out of the way, where is your data to back up your counterview?

Z28Wilson

You can't make an aggressive-looking, highly-styled somewhat smaller coupe?

You have no data and neither do I, other than the fact that Pony Cars have been hot sellers through the years in all different shapes and sizes. You say 2-seat sports cars without much of the practicality of any 2+2 "pony car" is evidence that a smaller Camaro/Mustang won't sell. I can use the same purely anecdotal evidence and point to Challenger's modest sales as proof that few people want a large "pony car". It doesn't necessarily fit for a host of reasons.

Done "right", I really don't see how a 3400-3500 pound coupe at 185" is magically going to look more awkward and sell worse than the 3900 pound one at 190".

SSbaby

You can but you can only make it so small before you begin to compromise space and driving position. As somebody alluded to earlier, when the economy tanks, so does sales of compact sports cars.

The data I base my comments on is the drop in sales across the board for the compact sports car class, as per the article! You will also notice that Camaro and Mustang are not in the same group and, therefore, are not suffering a [combined] drop in sales. How do you explain that?

So where's your information coming from, again?

99SilverSS

Yea I think the C6 is getting a bit long in the tooth and in this market where non practical secondary cars like 2 seaters are taking a beating the C6 being 5 years old doesn't help. Z06 Carbon, Grand Sport and ZR1 while getting all the press don't move the sales needle very much.
I also think the Camaro is stealing some Vette sales. It's new, celebrity popular and has some more practical use with plenty of power and performance for the mainstream buyer.

Z28Wilson

You said it yourself, Camaro and Mustang are NOT IN THE SAME CLASS.

How you can compare sales of 2-SEAT SPORTS CARS (which also are at the high end of the price spectrum, by the way) to 4 seat coupes is beyond me. Your whole argument is based on physical size and physical size alone, which is l-u-d-i-c-r-o-u-s. No one in the auto industry would form such a hypothesis.

2-seat sports cars are even more of a toy, or a luxury, than a Camaro or Mustang is. A good number of people buy pony cars as their daily drivers, especially the V6s. Few people buy a Corvette or Porsche as a daily driver. In this economy expensive, impractical toys are the first to go. Beyond that, look at the ages of some of the 2-seat sports cars mentioned in relation to Camaro and Mustang (which are both new or significantly restyled in 2010)

Current Corvette: 2005
Current 370Z: 2008
Current Miata: 2006

You need to get this idea out of your head that anyone here is advocating a tiny or even Corvette-sized Camaro. That's really your hangup here.

SSbaby

Back seats are almost unusable... except to store a bag or two.

The back seats are not the problem as you seem to allude to.

It's the low slung driving position... which is a consequence of size (or lack thereof).

No hangups from me. Just seeing things from an open angle.

96_Camaro_B4C

SSbaby,

The biggest complaint people have about the new Camaro is its unfriendly interior proportions and visibility, and it isn't a small car. The car is about 2 inches taller than the 4th gen, but they still managed to make headroom scarce for taller folks. I can't even imagine sitting in one with a sunroof. I have to slouch slightly in my wife's midsize sedan (Saturn L200) because it has a sunroof.

The somewhat smaller Mustang is praised for being more user-friendly to drive. What about the BMW 1-Series? I don't follow the car much, but I don't think too many have complained about space / seating position for the driver in that car. Granted, it does not have the Camaro's sexiness (though it has grown on me considerably, and I actually like it).

It could be argued that the 5th gen is similar to the 4th gen in this way. It has a big exterior but a small interior (back seat supposedly has 5 cu ft. less space than the Mustang's), with less than ideal visibility / "user-friendliness."

Z28Wilson

Joe,

Forget it. You cannot logically debate someone who himself has such a bizzare concept of logic.

$40k and $50k+ 2-seat sports cars aren't selling, larger $20-$3xk pony cars are selling, therefore a slightly smaller and lighter pony car won't sell. Huh??

SSbaby

Joe,

I don't agree that the proportions are 'unfriendly'. But let's discuss GM's current range.

BMW have a huge range of performance cars that compete on merit within the brand (i.e. 1-series vs 3-series vs 5-series) - all sedan based platforms, some with coupe body styles available as options.

GM, by way of comparison, has a limited range. But imagine if Camaro was a 1-series sized car and there was no large RWD coupe as per the 5G. Do you honestly believe it would sell as well, currently?

To suggest that Camaro should compete with BMW's 3-series is a crazy argument IMHO and it's a slack that should be taken up by Cadillac.

Cadillac definitely has a bare cupboard atm in comparison to what it has to compete against. It's but one reason why BMW owners do not cross shop with Cadillac.

The reason why we are having this discussion is because GM is starved of a range of performance RWD cars... and that's across all segments (compact, mid and large). In fact, Camaro is being asked to fight below its weight... because there is nothing worthy available. The G8 is no longer available... the CTS-V is at a totally different end of the spectrum...

Again, if GM had vehicles to compete head on with 1/3/5 series cars, there'd be far less people being sensitive to Camaro's current proportions... because there would be other cars to suit their needs.

Z28Wilson

Camaro is being asked to fight cars below its size and weight because its traditional competitors are - smaller and lighter.

What happens when the next Mustang gets even smaller and lighter than it is now, as Ford is pledging? Does Camaro go on as a near 2-ton coupe and Chevy introduces a new, smaller RWD coupe to compete with Mustang? And how does that make sense given the fact that Camaro and Mustang have traditionally been direct competitors? The fact is that a large, heavy and comfy Chevy coupe is more of a Chevelle/Monte Carlo than anything else.

ProudPony

I agree with your words here. No - they didn't "become scared of performance", IMO they never wanted it in the first place. They ust wanted to look good in a sporty car they could toss around and drive economically. So offering it (performance) to them, and the added weight/cost/etc that might or might not have come with it - was a waste. At a minimum, a 320hp car carried a higher insurance premium that a 140hp car did, no?

And lest we not forget - an overwhelming percentage of those SN-95 Mustangs were powered by a 140 hp V6 and an automatic. Seems hard to plead a case that we must have entry-level cars in the same market today that carry 305hp, doesn't it?

I read more into this thread and the marketing observations made by the article's author. The market is not wanting super-performance anymore, and the utility of 2-seaters is also giving way to more utilitarian vehicles - even if they are still "sporty" cars in a 2+2 configuration.

I stick by my words... Mustang and Camaro better be VERY careful, or they will go the way of the T-bird and Nova. 45 years is a long time to exist and not have figured out that something worked well for them - good economy, bad economy, whatever economy.

ProudPony

Hopefully, a new trend begins!

Z284ever

Amen! X 1 million!

poSSum

We have a 135i Cabrio. No complaints about space or seating position from us. It's a great driving/touring car but from a performance/handling perspective it has nothing on the 5th gen .... and the 5th gen sounds a whole lot better.