Longest doors in the industry!

They are a PITA. There have been many times I've been thankful I'm not taller and don't weigh more. I might not have been able to get back in the car!

It's strange though...not like other cars. I always get the feeling I'm strapping it on as opposed to getting in.

 

It's nice to have one of these for a change

 

Hey guys, if it is noticeably hard for you 6-footers to see over the hood, imagine how it is to a guy 5'-4", or better yet a girl 5'-0"?!?!

And unless I'm wrong, base seats do not have an up/down height adjustment like power seats in SUV's do...

No matter how much someone loves the styling, power, or whatever, they are not likely to buy a car that they can't drive safely or comfortably.

Is there a way to search the demigraphics of the Camaro owners database and see what the average height is?!?!

 

I'd like to see that. I'd also like to see how many Camaro owners would be willing to buy a new Camaro if it was MORE like, but not exactly the same as the new Mustang. Basically like the 67 Camaro was to the 67 Mustang. I have no doubts that GM is looking to build a Camaro, but what kind of Camaro will be able to compete with the Mustang (in sales) is the important question here. What do you think?

 

As long as we're agreeing that performance doesn't compromise styling and ergonomics. Then we must agree that the reverse is also true. Meaning if the 4th gen fanboys just want a certain level of performance in the 5th gen, the problem is solved.

There are plenty of superior performance "more upright" "conventional 3 box style" cars to the 4th gen. Off the top of my head, '03 Cobra and M3.

The 4th gen is an unappealing car around a world class drivetrain(minus the glass rearend). Horrible ergonomics and bullet nosed thing NON-styling. The comment about "feeling like your butt's gonna scrape the ground" describes it perfectly. The huge doors. The suffocating strapped in feel. The huge overhangs on a short wheelbase.

NOBODY wants that.

REPEAT Nobody wants that.

You guys may like that style. But if the General caters to that, the 5th gen is as dead as the 4th.

The 5th gen will have to be a more compact, upright, 3box design. In other words, it's headed back to the stance of the 1st gen. And it will still out accelerate, out corner, and out brake the 4th gen. That car will be a volume seller success... with or without the camaroz28.com forum members.

 

Lots of good points made here. But I think people who have owned both (or at least driven both) should be the ones to take seriously.

This is not meant to disrespect F-body fans, but how can anyone say Mustang s*cks or is a POS if they have never done seat time in one? If you were being outsold by a rival by 3 to 1, and you wanted to boost sales, which group would you be intrested in listening to? You already know what your fans want, so you'll start talking to the competitor's buyers.

To those of you who simply want a no compromise car, forget everyone else is living in a fantasy land. General Motors doesn't do charity work when it comes to sales. Neither does Ford or any other maker (though Toyota with the Prius does come close ). But being that the coupe market is much smaller than it was even just 3 years ago, each sale is way harder to earn. This means that to be sucessful (GM is a business afterall), outdoing your competition. This means areas beyond just performance (if that's all it took, 4th gen F-bodies would have flown off the shelf).

As far as interior comfort, I'll say that once inside my Z28, it's comfortable and roomy. It's low & wide, and feels huge inside. That's precisely what makes it great for long drives & a pain in the butt to drive in traffic daily. It feels huge and low. Getting in & out is not the easiest affair, and when I had surgery last year, I had to park the car altogether & drive the SC daily. If I had just my Z28, I'd be SOL.

Again, I'm not slaming the f-body. It's very quick, it's roomy inside (the rear seat area is actually more volumous than the back of a Mustang) and I've moved an incredible amout of stuff in the back of my Z. It's a great car for cruising night, or blasting up Highway 1 to Santa Barbera or Monterey (my soon to be new part time home). It's steering is rock solid, and the shifter actually feels hefty.

But for the day to day driving where you actually want a car that isn't 74" wide and sitting on the ground the Z is a little less fun. Getting in & out repeatedly during the day gets annoying where it doesn't even garner a 2nd thought in the Mustang. The thick B pillar and it's blind spot is enough to make you a more careful driver than you thought imaginable. And again, having parts fail or break at mileage that my Mustang seemed to be breaking in really tries the patience.

All in all, I like my Z28. If the next Camaro wipes out all my cars's short comings and keeps all it's strengths (and doesn't have that stupid automatic, non-defeteable headlight switch) I'll be ready to buy one in a heartbeat.

If Ford get's it's customer service house in order, and the new stang is a performance marvel and it's strengths are still there, I'll consider the Mustang. If Chrysler ever gets around to making a performance coupe, assuming it's what I'm looking for at a price & quality I want, I'll give it a look.

But at THIS moment, I gotta say my next car will probally be a GTO (of course this is subject to change over the next year or so ).

 

I honestly think that the Camaro is a great everyday car. Its fun, it feels heavy-duty and reliable. My new M6 Z28 with 213K feels bulletproof while still on the original motor. Getting in and out for me isn't a big deal at all, and I'm 6'3". I don't see why people complain about any of these things? Maybe its just because the Camaro is more suited to someone like me? I don't know. I'll have to go rent a Mustang GT before I make any comparisons.

 

If it was so bad... (and I know 'times are different now') , but explain how the 3rd gen sold so well if the "butt scraping the ground" is so bad???

 

I think you kind of answered your own question when you said "times are different now" . That's one possible reason. The market changes, and peoples priorities change as well.

300,000+ used to be common for cars like the mustang and camaro at one time (64-66 alone saw 1+mill stangs sold), but you'd be lucky to break 100,000+ units in the coupe segment nowadays. The later 4th gen Camaro's where nowhere near that, and the mustang (which is considered a sales success) barely hovered over 150k units a year. Compare that to stang/camaro sales a couple of decades back, and you'll know where i'm going with this. At one point, the pony/muscle car market thrived, now it's almost history.

The low to the ground 3rd gens sales success has no real bearing on todays market or the needs/wants of todays buying public. This doesn't mean that a more upright seating will automatically make the 5th gen a run-away sales success, but you will broaden your consumer base by making the car more livable for the everyday consumer. This is especially important in the base v6 cars.

 

You beat me to the punch line.

But that about sums it up. Times have changed. There's no room for the sports car anymore in the driveway. It's already clogged up with the mandatory SUV and/or minivan. The remaining spot for the car is reserved for an everyday useful vehicle. If it happens to be high performance, so be it. But number 1, it's gotta be useful. For those of you with detached 3 car garages, that's why the Vette exists.

And there's a measurable economic reason for the drop in coupes and sports cars. Cars cost more today. A lot more. Back in 1985 a Camaro Z/28 was what? $10-12K? That was about 1/3 the average annual salary of the time. It was easy enough to own one plus buy a Corolla for a daily driver. Today a Camaro that's $30K will be well over half the average salary. It's too big a financial commitment to settle for anything less than the total package. There's not enough money or room in the driveway for a 1 dimensional car.

 

by guionM
Sorta what I've been trying to say, that the 4th Gen had the Performance thing, hands down. Its only lack was curb appeal to the masses. But I don't believe it needed to "compromise its performance one bit" to achieve that. Compromises like straight flat body panels, doors etc..cut production costs, which probably helped offset performance costs.
People DO want the "rocket" part of a cars' character, just look at the "Import" turbo/nitrous scene thing going on. Speaks volumes....People have an inherent competitive gene, being faster than the guy next to you at a red light (however petty to some) is enjoyable to most, even the "soccer mom".
They just needed more curb appeal, in and out, although us "Gearheads" appreciated the shape for good reasons. The Mustang had "mass appeal" for nearly 10 years with its style flirtations of Mustangs gone by...and now the very image of its '67-68 Fastback ancestor. I don't think it appealed just b/c it was slower and more practical. But it looked better to most average people. If so then why were they nearly all modded almost immediately???But things like cheap looking "flat-light gray" plastic buttons and interior "GM"parts didn't fair well to Fords "shiney black" more rich colored more expensive looking components. And I'm 6'2'' 230# 36 waist, 34 inseam, and I DON'T like how the 4th Gen seats fit me and my 3rd Gen feels much bigger inside. I hit the car shows and dealerships and get in these cars every year b/c I enjoy checking out / comparing the new models etc.
And, I think the retiring "Baby-Boomers" will buy all of these new Mustangs they can make, getting a piece of their past, remembering the "Good Ole Days"...With the rest of their world changed and moved on, feeling forgotten, they love it when a part of it like this resurected...
And I got to get in a new GTO today, while it does look better in person... it still looks a LOT like a big Cavalier with Grand Prix grills. LOVE the sound!!! and interior with color matched gages!!!Stereo!!! I don't like the "Euro" driverside exit duals, I'd like ours to exit traditionally one behind each tire...But that body needs to evolve next year, needs more personality to match it's BRAWN...(some WOW factor..)

 

I know that Ford service can stink and it's hard to find a good dealer at times. However, if you purchase a SVT (even a Focus) your service will be EXCELLENT. As an SVT owner you're treated really well. They even pay for your rental if you have to leave your car in overnight. Just something to consider. It won't be too long before the SVT Cobra is out. Although, if you can't wait the GTO is a very nice car as well.

 

Yes, times have changed, but some of you guys are just looking too hard to find reaons why the 4th Gen died.

Being low slung is waaaaay down the list if even on it.

1) If the F-Body had the build quality of the current Monte Carlo, it would be a 2 decade leap in quality for the F-Body. Let's face it... the car had issues with quality.

2) A car in this segment HAS to change it's looks, at least in a minor way, more than ONCE in TEN YEARS.

3) Advertising... been down that road a million times.

4) Most Dealer stock was rotten... been there a million times.

5) Most Dealer product knowledge was rotten...

6) GM wanted the car to die off... that certainly doesn;t help things either.


Again, I stand by my statement, that if the 4th Gen car had excellent build quality, proper advertsing, incentives to match the comepetition, more frequent styling updates, and better dealer stock and product knowledge on hand.... it would have sold just fine.

The basic Camaro formula is just fine the way it is... just build it engineer and build it better, and support the product properly.

 

I have been pleasantly surprised by the dealer service on my SVT Contour. When it was under warrany, I'd always get a loaner without even asking. But even after my warranty expired...the dealer would always work with me on repairs for "goodwill" (that is..things that shouldn't break...like fractured springs), and always supplied me with a rental.

 

Yes, this is the same type of service I have seen as an SVT owner also.