I'm sure they were paid, and you are correct the ultimate price was paid by the men and women who fought and fight for this country. However GM and the others played a major role in those wars.

My point is this all three contributed in defending this country along with the men and women, so you can drive that Toyota around. Agree with me or not I don't care. The naive thing here is that Americans really believe this will not hurt them. Go ask the people in York, Pa what happened when the Harley plant laid 700 people off.

let me ask you this. What Happend when OMC laid 7,000 people off in your hometown?

 

You beat me to that punch.

I don't mean or wish to take anything away from the sacrifices made by the entire country and virtually every living citizen and business at the time who saw this country through WWI and WWII.

However, I'm getting a little tired of people holding up the domestic auto manufacturers as if they produced the material and equipment needed simply out of patriotism. If they did it all for free then I'll eat my words but while I wasn't around at the time, it's my understanding that they got paid for the services they provided.

Let's not also forget that at the time, with a huge percentage of our population under arms and the rest of the country wondering if the country would survive, there wouldn't have been a lot of cars sold by anyone even if the domestics had stuck to producing cars.

Individuals act out of emotions like patriotism; businesses, even GM, tend to do what they think is best for their BUSINESS, not for the country or countries they happen to be operating in.

That's not evil...that's just the way it is.

 

It doesn't matter if they got paid or didn't. The fact remains that THEY built all the equipment needed to win the war.

And the people behind the scenes count just as much as the ones on the front line. If it wasn't for them, the people in the front would have nothing to work with. Duh.

How do you figure we have communism or socialism in this country? Because some people believe it's necessary to help out their fellow countrymen? Are you (and people that think like you) really that selfish?


Ya know, there's a little saying in this country that's taught to children as early as kindergarten.
United we stand, divided we fail

Seems like the repubs & conservatives don't quite believe in that statement. It seems like they pledge alliegience ONLY to themselves and the almighty dollar. Me, me, me. That's all I hear from you people.

 

If the domestic automobile industry wasn't so important I might be inclined to agree, but the blowout from these guys failing would just be to big and to devastating.

Good point, unfortunately as far as I can tell we as a nation are up [censored] creek and the domestic auto industry is the paddle.

I dont think your in the minority here.

 

No one, well, almost no one, is suggesting that any of the Detroit Three failing won't severely and negatively impact the country.

What most of us are saying is that government intervention is worse than the alternative.

I think it also fair to say that many of us, me included, would feel a whole lot better about the government butting in IF GM is going to do a major (and I me MAJOR) restructuring. Such a restructuring would (and should) be painful for everyone at GM or who have worked at GM (retirees included).

Anything short of that sort of change and all this money is nothing but a handout that will only keep a brain dead patient's heart beating for a while.

 

you'll find the biggest reason the failure of the Big three is supported because the necessary changes to the business can only be made in that atmosphere.



The other consideration is the fear of what will happen if they fail. People predict the country, people and market can't cope. We've done it before, why not now.


My final consideration is based on what happens in a bankrupt GM. Business likely continues for many in a situation somewhat similar to what happended to the airline industry. The doors don't close. Some jobs lost, assets moved around and sold. When the dust settles things take a direction for the better.

 

It absolutely matters...it goes right to the heart of the argument about GM's complete motivations. There is nothing wrong with GM getting paid for the products they produced but the suggestion that is was solely motivated by patriotism, is simply not a valid argument.

Sometimes, the "right" thing to do for your country and the right thing to do for your business are one and the same thing. It's great when that happens, but that doesn't mean it's Ok to extol the motivations you like (to support an argument) and ignore other motivations that played an equal or better part in taking an action.

There is a HUGE difference between charity - giving willingly out of one's abundance and having that abundance confiscated at the point of a gun to be "given" to others who have done nothing to earn it.

Socialism: From each according to his means to each according to their needs. (note that there is nothing in that statement that requires or even implies a requirement for the receiver of that largess to have done anything to have earned/deserved it).

Conservatism/free-market: If you don't work, you don't eat.

The U.S. today: Welfare, medcaire, medicaid, prescription drug program...I could go on and on and that's not to mention the coming universal health care, taking our 401(K)s, rather than admit Social In-Security is an utter failure and 95% of families getting a "tax break" even though upwards of 45% of the population already don't pay taxes.

You can dress up the above in any euphemistic code name you want but taking from those who have earned it and giving it those who have not IS socialism and it started in this country with the "New Deal" and will be pretty much complete with universal health care.

 

Robert you nailed my problem with the bailouts. Conservatism/free market = Capitalism

Communism which we had an entire cold war in which almost reached Nuclear proportions, is what this country is headed for full steam. It doesnt work. Removes competition and incentive to produce.

*dictates how much you make as we have been seeing more and more complaints of "Unfair profits"

*dictates what you produce, such as greener cars.

*dictates what you can sell the product for, "reasonable" pricing.

*The recent run on gun stores isnt a hunting epidmic outbreak. People rightly fearing loss of their 2nd Amendment. One of the requirements of the incomming administration is listing Gun Ownership. You have to list your 2nd Amendment Gun Ownership but not Drug Use. If were not careful I fear the next war we see may be a Civil one.


I dont like this because I hate Unions and their breaking would be the one silver linning in all this. It would show the effect they have on industry. Yes really. I think they are victims of themselves and I hate the idea of my tax dollars going to keeping the Unions from failing so our short sighted Government can inflict and insert Unions on the rest of industry who Unions havent hurt yet.






On the other hand


In the interest of National Security Im leaning toward it. What if the friendly countries we rely on for vehicles today go to war with us tomorrow? My opinon is we should reduce what we buy here that is made in China. They are communist, stealing our intelectual rights and threatening our Government. Granted were headed in the same direction... Their whole communist government is a leach on the rest of the world. They dont need to develop their own stuff because copying the rest of the worlds when other countries use them for cheap labor is too easy. They're whole economy seems to be producing goods for the rest of the world while stealing the designs for those goods. They are a huge Military threat. India has a huge population as do other countries.

It is a loan with interest, not an full blown Socialized investment in the company or into stock. It is not Subsadising.

If you had asked me in the 90s I would have said absoloutely let the big 3 fail. GM seems to started to turn around. The something that "has to change" seems to have been. Am I wrong? I mean had the company gone down with the management that got it here I would have shrugged. I hate the idea that someone like Bob Lutz got on board and we started getting changes long overdue and its just too late to steer the ship away from the waterfalls.



I know I dont know the whole story so feel free to help me out. Im very torn on this...

 

Seems to me you care about your country. I figure you are paying attention to what's happening around you in a more thoughtful way than the majority can be bothered to.

Go with your gut.

Chew on the whole problem/issue. Right or wrong, you will have truly met your responsibily as a citizen.

 

I will always be philosophically opposed the the Federal government sticking its collective nose into places where it doesn't belong, whether that's GM/the auto industry or in any other area.

That said, I'd be much less concerned if I knew that...

1. The bailout/loan would actually work, and

2. The funds would actually be paid back

While I'd like to think the best of the Feds and of GM; I've seen little reason to think that this intervention is going to work or that GM will ever be in a position to repay the funds and if it doesn't work/GM doesn't pay it back then, in my mind, it would be a terrible wast of money...made all the worse by the fact that the Federal government doesn't have the money in the first place.

 

Not in this case. How likely are people willing to buy vehicles from a company that is bankrupt? Most people buy a vehicle expecting a long term relationship with both the vehicle and the manufacturer (think warranty). How likely would you purchase a vehicle from a manufacturer knowing that you may not get a full warranty out of the deal? I'll bet not likely.......

 

A bankrupt GM (as in a chapter 11 reorganization) is highly unlikely because GM would likely not get debtor in possession financing which would be needed to keep the lights on and doors opened while it reorganized. It is also unlikely because, as you pointed out, few if anybody would want to buy an asset as large as a new car/truck from a manufacturer in bankruptcy.

What is a possibility, distasteful as it might be, is that a bankrupt GM (as in chapter 7 liquidation) would be liquidated and someone (Ford, Chrysler, one of the transplants or an investor/group of investors) would come in and buy pieces of GM that could become a new, viable automotive manufacturer again...one not encumbered with all "stuff" weighing on GM now.

There are many here who (at least it seems) believe that GM "failing" means all the assets just start rusting away and 100% of the jobs are lost and never replaced...it could be that bad but I really doubt it.

Let's not forget that GM and all the other manufacturers ARE selling cars and trucks...the market has taken a sever hit but that doesn't mean that there is no market or that a new, truly competitive company couldn't rise from GM's ashes.

 

I'm sure it's comfy and carefree for you (who work for Nissan, IIRC) to be so lighthearted about grim futures for Big Three workers, leaders and community members. But here in Detroit, we will be the first to feel the pain. Letting the Big Three go under would/will be devastating for the US economy. It's not just about a handful of assembly plants. It's suppliers (many of whom are deeply intertwined with import Asian production support as well)... it's thousands of dealers who would/will be stuck with millions of new units suddenly scorned by a wary buying public... waterfalling to DMV's across the nation, who charge more for new vehicle plates... insurance companies who can charge more for insuring new vehicles... cuts in marketing such as Super Bowl ads, hitting hundreds of locally owned TV/radio stations... the ripple effects go on and on like a wave on a lake.

And aside from that. If GM goes under... frankly it just wouldn't feel the same to be buying a Corvette that was made by Chinese or Indian labor. Part of the Corvette mystique is the heritage and history of the car. Buyers today visit the Bowling Green complex and it is an attraction in its own right. If we lose that, we lose a little bit of our America



(2002 Corvette nose badge image from http://www.vetteweb.com/features/vem...tte/index.html )

 

I don’t know if you really believe I am “lighthearted” and “carefree” about all of this or if you just don’t like what I had to say.

As others, including Fbodfather, have pointed out in these related threads, my job would likely be severely and negatively impacted by a failed GM too…do you really think I’m lighthearted and carefree about that prospect?

If my opinions were based on my emotions (like self-preservation) I’d say “hell yes we’ve got to save GM”. However, I refuse to let my emotions dictate my principles and my opinions based on those principles.

If you insist on equating that with being lighthearted, I guess that’s up to you.

 

I say what I believe. I've no qualms about letting my convictions and passions affect my positions (here's another person with such a philosophy: http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/henry-liberty.html ). Your post smacks of 'oh well too bad so sad for you and others of the Big Three...' made all the more comprehensible when folks recall your position - safe and sound with a sellout Asian factory job. Goody for you. So you don't want to help Big Three workers, managers, designers, marketers, suppliers and dealers. Fine. Just don't come running for help to us... when Nissan decides that hmm... no American makes left... no need to keep 'fronting' about caring for American workers... let's move production to that cheaper labor force in Indonesia