Frankly, the US Government is not that stud either. Handing the keys to the government is as irresponsible as giving a loaded pistol to a 5 year old.

If GM ran its business the way profitable companies ran theirs we would not be having this conversation. Any argument for giving GM funds from the treasury should be based on government intervention that has reduced their ability in the market, ie CAFE.

 

I agree with you; but I bet 25% of the people on this board would lose their jobs if the Auto Industry completely failed here in the USA. Maybe more!

 

I've been posting here for what - like 7 years now or so - and I have NEVER changed my message or my signature with respect to the manufacturing position. I have taken hits, cuts, stabs, jabs, and everything else because of my stance of loyalty to domestic manufacturing - and yes, domestic vehicles especially. I've been told I was downright out of touch, I don't understand economics, I don't understand globalism, etc. etc.

To the many people who have chidded and tried to convince me that "it doesn't matter if it's a foreign name or a domestic one"...
COME TALK TO ME NOW.

Try and tell me again why it is that it doesn't matter.
The old argument of "where does the money go"?
The argument about how many jobs the foreign companies are giving Americans?
The argument about how well-paid these new jobs are?
And how it just doesn't matter if it's a Chevy or a Kia?

The time for arm-chair coaching, tailgate referees, and daydreaming playmakers is GONE...
IT'S GAMETIME BOYS AND GIRLS, AND IT'S ALL ON THE LINE.

Many have said, "but ForeignXYZ is using local suppliers too" and "ForeignXYZ is hiring locally too", and used this as an excuse to brush-off the downturn of domestic companies - like there is going to be some kind of seamless transition or substitution of the ForeignXYZ company for GM, or Ford, or Chrysler at every Mom and Pop shop and supplier in the USA. It's like folks think these small shops and dependents will never even know there was a change in POs except the name on the invoice and the name on the check. Well, now it should be painfully obvious that this is not the case. If GM goes down, they will drag most of the suppliers and contributors to their industry along with them. Ford and Chrysler will die under the load of trying to find and qualify new suppliers, in time, for equivalent cost, relocate or remake tooling, test and qualify, PPAP the parts again, and get the supply pipelines full - all for existing units that are in production already. For those of you not in the industry, this takes months even when times are good and schedules are "normal". Much less we expect their skeleton staff or broke budgets to expend any effort or money on developing new product simultaneously. I persoanlly think that even some of the foreign companies will go down with them due to shared supplier bases, partnerships, and JVs.

I belly-ached about employment - said it was too high, and people argued it was not/is not.
I griped about foreclosures and the rate of forclosures over a year ago - I was told it was not unusual or a problem, but even an opportunity.
I preached about finance and how it was too intertwined in areas that it did not belong but I was accused of not knowing economic policy and not understanding what was really happening.
I said over 2 years ago (while working in Germany actually) that the US carmakers needed to bring European designs and specs to the US market quickly - and was ridden like a rented mule by many that said diesels were bad, and compacts would not make it here, etc.

All I am trying to point out is that I am not surprised by the situation I find us in as a nation right now. I saw it coming and said it would be here... and here it is. I also think it will get worse before it gets better. I am glad that some people (like De Lorenzo) are finally starting to publicly write-about and discuss the bigger picture. I know this is a car forum and we are all here because we love cars (and trucks and bikes too), but there is more to the fall of the big 3 than their old ways of making sub-par vehicles, and you simply MUST look at the bigger picture when discussing their probability of turning business around. Now if only the traitors that write for C&D, R&T, Consumer Reports, and other biased rags would publish something factual to this effect, and admit that they have fueled the train that is derailing at this moment - well, I'll be pleasantly amazed and start reading their stuff again to boot.

So, if there is anyone on this board now who can read an article like the one above (not to mention the dozens of threads in which we said virtualy the same thing) and still think that it's acceptable for GM to go belly-up... well, I think you need a labotomy... in a hotel... in Istanbul... by a three-year-old.

Skipping to a positive theory for the closure, I think that the first company to totally reinvent personal transportation - and I mean revolutionize it drastically - will become the next "Ford Motor Company" and will be the benchmark for the next half-century or so. IMO, cars have been so static for the last 50 years it's shameful. There were cars in the 1950's that had power windows and seats. Automatic transmissions. Push-button shifters. wagons, coupes, and convertibles. They all had 4 wheels, a steering wheel, an engine in the front, live axle in the back, springs, shocks, and a radio. What do cars today have? Newer versions of the same. People in the 1940's and 50's envisioned us flying around in personal spacecraft that were powered by garbage and would drive themselves on automated skyways by now. Yet IMO, the carmakers have ALL (and I mean all as in globally) seemd content with the basic "car" design, and are plowing into the deepest aspects of "gadgets" to make the car remain appealing. Heated and cooled seats?!?! Satellite radio?!?! Rear-facing cameras?!?! DVD players?!?! Speed-sensitive steering?!?! C'mon guys... a wheel that is rounder, smoother, and darker is still a wheel. Why can't someone get out of the box and be creative for a change?

THAT is my next prophesy... the company that breaks the mold and does something boldly refreshing, economically groundbreaking, and practical to boot - they will OWN the transportation market and become the next Microsoft-type of industrial superpower.

KUDOS to De Lorenzo for finally putting down words like those just written.

 

Ford is 25% of what my facility bills out.
GM about 20%
Mercedes about 20%
Chrysler about 15%
Nissan and others finish out the rest.

I would probably be working in another field within 6 mos of GM filing for 11... my choice or theirs, I'm sure it would happen.

 

Jim Cramer from CNBC said something interesting. He was talking about WW2 and Pearl Harbor and making a connection to the automakers' problems.
He basically said that after we were attacked at Pearl Harbor, we didn't try to figure out why it happened. We defended ourselves and beat the enemy. THEN we proceeded to figure out HOW it happened AFTER we won.
He said this is the route we should take with the big 3.

Let's get 'em over the hump so we don't have a total economic meltdown, and then we'll figure where they went wrong and stop it from happening again.

 

Without a credit market willing to give people with less than perfect credit a loan, things will not get better. You can't make money if you can't sell your product, and this has accelerated the demise of not only the big 3 but many other companies out there including the likes of Circuit City. Wagoner is saying that he won't step down to get a bailout, and I have a feeling that stipulation has been brought up in meetings with the government. Honestly, I could see the bailouts being used as a tool by the government to gain control, kill the V8 in passenger cars and to push their automotive agenda. There are so many scenarios of what can happen, and not a one of them has been positive. I am convinced that the reluctance of the government to this point to step in shows that the bailout was a way to help their friends and not to help save the economy. GM going under would have a far more devastating impact that the failure of AIG, yet the money to help GM pales in comparison to that package.

 

Hey hey hey wait a min. Don't take all the claim. Don't you think I had my own share of personal wars on here with others on those same topics in bold. I know I remember them and guess what like you said and yes I a long time ago this was going to happen. I wish I had the time to go back and find the posts I know I had a Nostradamus moment in a few topics about this very thing. How is it that someone like myself a blue collar worker can figure this out and a guy with a golden chute has no clue???

 

If GM files it won't be a Chapter 11...they cannot reorganize.

If they try to reorganize (Chapter 11) the sales they have now (and they are selling some let's not forget) will absolutely dry up and fly away as no one is going to want to buy from a bankrupt car company...with $0 revenue coming and likely, no ability to borrow, they cannot make it...they would have to file a Chapter 7.

And no, this isn't the fault of those of use who buy "foreign" cars...no company, not even GM, deserves to exist just "because" they are, ostensibly, an "American" company....perhaps if GM/Ford/Chrysler had spent less time lobbying Congress for protection and, instead, used those resources more wisely, they wouldn't be in the situation they are in today.

No; the blame for the Big 3's troubles can be seen when they look at themselves in the mirror.

 

What's sad is that you, and many others on this board, would be happy about that. And if not happy, then at least indifferent. And that to me is just as bad.

 

I'm not at all indifferent nor happy about it.

I dare say I've spent a lot more money on brand new GM vehicles in my lifetime than most people on this board (the four F-Bodies I've owned are just some of the GM vehicles I've owned) not to mention the occasional Ford and Chrysler products I've had as well.

What I am not is someone who is so wrapped up in GM/the domestic industry that I think it can't be allowed to fail.

When companies use a failed business model (especially when that company continues to use a failed business model even in the face of overwhelming evidence that it's failed), then that company deserves to fail. Period.

Life is not a fairy tale where everyone gets to live happily ever after - doing stupid things usually carries unpleasant consequences.

 

I see comments like this and I urge people to stop and think before they say them. I don't think people understand that you cannot watch it happen from a safe distance. It is not a local hero, but it is a global employer. If GM goes down, you and everyone else in this country will be severely impacted.

Since you didn't read the first post that said it all, let's put this into cliff's notes...

If GM stops...

• All employees will be out of a job. Staggering number right there.
• All suppliers would be immediately out of business, and all employees would be out of a job. This number is immense and ripples into corners you would never think of. One example is this very site. No vendors to cover hosting costs...site goes down, hosting company loses money. Multiply this by 1,000 sites and hosting companies need to cut back. This is just one small example that can be folded a million times over. Think of the office supply companies, airlines, gas stations, ad agencies, travel agencies, schools, even catering companies that will be impacted by the worlds largest corporations going down. More people out of work and no jobs will be out there.
• What about Ford? Chrysler? Toyota? Some suppliers are customers of both GM and Ford and others. Those suppliers and employees would be out of business immediately as well. So Ford would immediately be severely impacted...and would possibly follow GM...and that number of people out of work would become staggering. Cars by surviving companies would double in price because it is harder to build with less suppliers.

So, to summarize...a seriously huge percentage of the US would be not only out of work, but not paying taxes and will be needing government assistance to live. But they will not get it with no one paying into the system...

So...well...

I am thinking that it would get very bad, very fast and the very last thing on anyone's mind will be how GM deserved it. It may very well be not having to kill and eat each other to stay alive. Kinda funny...but perhaps true? I don't mean to sound like a doomsday prophet nor am I trying to be, but this is to illustrate my point that GM collapsing simply cannot happen.

I believe it will bring on a depression that will be unlike anything this planet has ever seen, and it will impact YOU, your family and everyone you know.

Again, you can't watch this happen from a safe distance. There is no "do over". It isn't like watching a war on the news in some other country. Please consider the big picture before making statements that you need to hope never come true. I don't think it is okay that this has to happen, I am somewhat frustrated by how things got to be this way, but I will take the thought of GM accepting a LOAN ("bailout" is the wrong term) to survive than the alternative.

 

May I ask -- Who do you work for?

 

No arguments there. The US Government is certainly not that stud. All the US Government can do is underwrite one last chance for GM. One last chance to thrive. And GM [u]needs[/i] to have the focus to realize this "one last chance" is exactly that.

The GM Board of Directors needs to come out of their stupor and find that 'stud', (either from within GM or from outside GM) - AND GIVE THEM THE AUTHORITY to make the right decisions for this company.

If reports are true that Wagoner actually said that he will not accept federal help for GM if it comes with the stipulation that he resign - well if that's true, that tells me he's not that 'stud' either. Actually, I already knew that.

 

Amen, Mr. Harden -- how SOON we forget.

 

Actually, Scott, you and I have spoken in person several times (not that I in any way expect you to remember that). I even had you sign my last FBody (a 2000 Z28). Were it anyone else asking me that question I would tell them it was none of their business.

What I will tell you is that I work for Nissan North America (corporate).

That said, while I am not stupid enough to claim no bias, I will also say that my opinions are my own and have been forged over a lifetime (almost a lifetime as long as yours) of experience both in and out of the auto industry.