Since the 300 has added value because it is built from last gen Mercedes parts...
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From: USA
Originally posted by WERM
Which Parts?
Which Parts?
I could be wrong though.
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From: Chicagoland IL
This is a tough one, since we have nothing really official on the Zeta specs. All that we discuss about Zeta is educated speculation.
Zeta is......
1) A "cheaper" Sigma.
2) A revamp of the ancient V-car.
3) All new.
4) Some hybrid of these.
Which one?
We don't officially know what Zeta will be like specifically.
But we know ALL about DCX's LX platform. It was always planned for RWD before the "merger". It was probably going to be an evolution of the previous gen LH cars, (Intrepid, Concord, 300, etc.)
Although the LH's were FWD....their architecture was designed from the beginning to be easily converted to RWD. That's why their engine are mounted longitudinally.....even for FWD.
After the "merger", the still in developement LX's were able (some say forced), to raid
the Mercedes parts bin.
Ultimately used was a version of the Mercedes E-class automatic transmission (downgraded from 6 speeds to 5 in order not to step on Mercedes toes), and versions of Mercedes' stability control, steering, front suspensions, electronics, rear suspensions, and seats. The suspensions have different geometry than the E-class are are cast iron or steel stampings....versus aluminum for the E-class. According to Wolfgand Bernhard, 20% of the LX platform are components that come directly from Mercedes.
These Mercedes or Mercedes based components..plus the availability of the Hemi V8 and the bold sheetmetal already planned by Chrysler Design for the Magnum and 300 pulled the whole program together.
Zeta is......
1) A "cheaper" Sigma.
2) A revamp of the ancient V-car.
3) All new.
4) Some hybrid of these.
Which one?
We don't officially know what Zeta will be like specifically.
But we know ALL about DCX's LX platform. It was always planned for RWD before the "merger". It was probably going to be an evolution of the previous gen LH cars, (Intrepid, Concord, 300, etc.)
Although the LH's were FWD....their architecture was designed from the beginning to be easily converted to RWD. That's why their engine are mounted longitudinally.....even for FWD.
After the "merger", the still in developement LX's were able (some say forced), to raid
the Mercedes parts bin.
Ultimately used was a version of the Mercedes E-class automatic transmission (downgraded from 6 speeds to 5 in order not to step on Mercedes toes), and versions of Mercedes' stability control, steering, front suspensions, electronics, rear suspensions, and seats. The suspensions have different geometry than the E-class are are cast iron or steel stampings....versus aluminum for the E-class. According to Wolfgand Bernhard, 20% of the LX platform are components that come directly from Mercedes.
These Mercedes or Mercedes based components..plus the availability of the Hemi V8 and the bold sheetmetal already planned by Chrysler Design for the Magnum and 300 pulled the whole program together.
Last edited by Z284ever; May 23, 2004 at 07:32 PM.
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From: Kilgore TX 75662
Originally posted by Z284ever
Although the LH's were FWD....their architecture was designed from the beginning to be easily converted to RWD. That's why their engine are mounted longitudinally.....even for FWD.
After the "merger", the still in developement LX's were able to raid
the Mercedes parts bin.
Ultimately used was a version of the Mercedes E-class automatic transmission (downgraded from 6 speeds to 5 in order not to step on Mercedes toes), and versions of Mercedes' stability control, steering, front suspensions, electronics, rear suspensions, and seats. The suspensions have different geometry than the E-class are are cast iron or steel stampings....versus aluminum for the E-class. According to Wolfgand Bernhard, 20% of the LX platform are components that come directly from Mercedes.
These Mercedes or Mercedes based components..plus the availability of the Hemi V8 and the bold sheetmetal already planned by Chrysler Design for the Magnum and 300 pulled the whole program together.
Although the LH's were FWD....their architecture was designed from the beginning to be easily converted to RWD. That's why their engine are mounted longitudinally.....even for FWD.
After the "merger", the still in developement LX's were able to raid
the Mercedes parts bin.
Ultimately used was a version of the Mercedes E-class automatic transmission (downgraded from 6 speeds to 5 in order not to step on Mercedes toes), and versions of Mercedes' stability control, steering, front suspensions, electronics, rear suspensions, and seats. The suspensions have different geometry than the E-class are are cast iron or steel stampings....versus aluminum for the E-class. According to Wolfgand Bernhard, 20% of the LX platform are components that come directly from Mercedes.
These Mercedes or Mercedes based components..plus the availability of the Hemi V8 and the bold sheetmetal already planned by Chrysler Design for the Magnum and 300 pulled the whole program together.
Up until very recently, the Benz auto tranny only had 5 forward speeds, so I'm betting they just used the old trannies.
I wonder how much weight the 300C and Magnum would drop if they were to get the Benz aluminum suspension parts?
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From: The Golden State
Gotta disagree completely about the added value part of the Mercedes-Chrysler 300 equasion. The public likes the looks and the price of the 300. I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "added value" anyway. It's a unique design, is well equpted, and it's priced $10-15,000 below what anyone expects. It's as if the base Cadillac CTS was sold as the Chevrolet Impala at Impala prices (with a $32,000 LS2 powered Impala SS version, of course).
The transmission on the 300 is Mercedes based, but it's manufactured by Chrysler here in the US. The suspension also is Mercedes based, but it isn't interchangeable with Mercedes, and is made here in the US with more emphasis on costs.
The engineering for these pieces (as well as the very few pieces actually shared with Mercedes) was already paid for or had to be modified for Chrysler. Therefore, unlike the Crossfire (which is actually a Mercedes under the skin), the 300 is more Chrysler than the Ford 500 is all Ford (which is basically a reskinned Volvo).
The 300 has plenty of pieces based on Mercedes parts, but the car's quality & value is purely the result of the Chrysler USA division.
Besides, 95% of the public doesn't even know Chrysler is owned by Mercedes, so they are buying 300s on it's own merits, not because of any MB association.
As far as Zeta adding "value" because of Cadillac, again the public knows that Escalades are nothing more than guzzied up Tahoes, yet they ****** them up. Yet Lincoln LSs are Jaguars under the skin (right down to it's Jaguar... not Ford modular... based engine), yet it doesn't have added value, and you'd be hard pressed to find any buyers that are aware of this.
It's flawed to believe the public keeps track of what other cars are based on, or that this is what adds value to cars.
(BTW: I suspect Chrysler's Rear Drive 300's 60,000 orders it's 1st month rate is registering at GM. )
The transmission on the 300 is Mercedes based, but it's manufactured by Chrysler here in the US. The suspension also is Mercedes based, but it isn't interchangeable with Mercedes, and is made here in the US with more emphasis on costs.
The engineering for these pieces (as well as the very few pieces actually shared with Mercedes) was already paid for or had to be modified for Chrysler. Therefore, unlike the Crossfire (which is actually a Mercedes under the skin), the 300 is more Chrysler than the Ford 500 is all Ford (which is basically a reskinned Volvo).
The 300 has plenty of pieces based on Mercedes parts, but the car's quality & value is purely the result of the Chrysler USA division.
Besides, 95% of the public doesn't even know Chrysler is owned by Mercedes, so they are buying 300s on it's own merits, not because of any MB association.
As far as Zeta adding "value" because of Cadillac, again the public knows that Escalades are nothing more than guzzied up Tahoes, yet they ****** them up. Yet Lincoln LSs are Jaguars under the skin (right down to it's Jaguar... not Ford modular... based engine), yet it doesn't have added value, and you'd be hard pressed to find any buyers that are aware of this.
It's flawed to believe the public keeps track of what other cars are based on, or that this is what adds value to cars.
(BTW: I suspect Chrysler's Rear Drive 300's 60,000 orders it's 1st month rate is registering at GM.
)
Last edited by guionM; May 23, 2004 at 07:50 PM.
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Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Originally posted by guionM
Gotta disagree completely about the added value part of the Mercedes-Chrysler 300 equasion. The public likes the looks and the price of the 300. I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "added value" anyway. It's a unique design, is well equpted, and it's priced $10-15,000 below what anyone expects. It's as if the base Cadillac CTS was sold as the Chevrolet Impala at Impala prices (with a $32,000 LS2 powered Impala SS version, of course).
The transmission on the 300 is Mercedes based, but it's manufactured by Chrysler here in the US. The suspension also is Mercedes based, but it isn't interchangeable with Mercedes, and is made here in the US with more emphasis on costs.
The engineering for these pieces (as well as the very few pieces actually shared with Mercedes) was already paid for or had to be modified for Chrysler. Therefore, unlike the Crossfire (which is actually a Mercedes under the skin), the 300 is more Chrysler than the Ford 500 is all Ford (which is basically a reskinned Volvo).
The 300 has plenty of pieces based on Mercedes parts, but the car's quality & value is purely the result of the Chrysler USA division.
Besides, 95% of the public doesn't even know Chrysler is owned by Mercedes, so they are buying 300s on it's own merits, not because of any MB association.
As far as Zeta adding "value" because of Cadillac, again the public knows that Escalades are nothing more than guzzied up Tahoes, yet they ****** them up. Yet Lincoln LSs are Jaguars under the skin (right down to it's Jaguar... not Ford modular... based engine), yet it doesn't have added value, and you'd be hard pressed to find any buyers that are aware of this.
It's flawed to believe the public keeps track of what other cars are based on, or that this is what adds value to cars.
(BTW: I suspect Chrysler's Rear Drive 300's 60,000 orders it's 1st month rate is registering at GM. )
Gotta disagree completely about the added value part of the Mercedes-Chrysler 300 equasion. The public likes the looks and the price of the 300. I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "added value" anyway. It's a unique design, is well equpted, and it's priced $10-15,000 below what anyone expects. It's as if the base Cadillac CTS was sold as the Chevrolet Impala at Impala prices (with a $32,000 LS2 powered Impala SS version, of course).
The transmission on the 300 is Mercedes based, but it's manufactured by Chrysler here in the US. The suspension also is Mercedes based, but it isn't interchangeable with Mercedes, and is made here in the US with more emphasis on costs.
The engineering for these pieces (as well as the very few pieces actually shared with Mercedes) was already paid for or had to be modified for Chrysler. Therefore, unlike the Crossfire (which is actually a Mercedes under the skin), the 300 is more Chrysler than the Ford 500 is all Ford (which is basically a reskinned Volvo).
The 300 has plenty of pieces based on Mercedes parts, but the car's quality & value is purely the result of the Chrysler USA division.
Besides, 95% of the public doesn't even know Chrysler is owned by Mercedes, so they are buying 300s on it's own merits, not because of any MB association.
As far as Zeta adding "value" because of Cadillac, again the public knows that Escalades are nothing more than guzzied up Tahoes, yet they ****** them up. Yet Lincoln LSs are Jaguars under the skin (right down to it's Jaguar... not Ford modular... based engine), yet it doesn't have added value, and you'd be hard pressed to find any buyers that are aware of this.
It's flawed to believe the public keeps track of what other cars are based on, or that this is what adds value to cars.
(BTW: I suspect Chrysler's Rear Drive 300's 60,000 orders it's 1st month rate is registering at GM.
)
I am not the one who talks about how the 300 has Mercedes in every thread praising it
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Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by formula79
I am not the one who talks about how the 300 has Mercedes in every thread praising it
I am not the one who talks about how the 300 has Mercedes in every thread praising it
Besides, the question asked was does it have added value. I don't think all of us on the site combined have enough pull to influence the value of the 300 if the buying public isn't even aware of the ownership of the company making the car.
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,232
From: Orlando, FL USA
Originally posted by Z284ever
Although the LH's were FWD....their architecture was designed from the beginning to be easily converted to RWD. That's why their engine are mounted longitudinally.....even for FWD.
Although the LH's were FWD....their architecture was designed from the beginning to be easily converted to RWD. That's why their engine are mounted longitudinally.....even for FWD.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Originally posted by guionM
(BTW: I suspect Chrysler's Rear Drive 300's 60,000 orders it's 1st month rate is registering at GM. )
(BTW: I suspect Chrysler's Rear Drive 300's 60,000 orders it's 1st month rate is registering at GM.
)
I've got my fingers crossed. Both on the rear drive part...and, (love'em or hate'em).....on the non-androgenous, generic appliance (HINT: Chevrolet), part.
Last edited by Z284ever; May 23, 2004 at 10:12 PM.
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I think the 60k units is great, but lets see what happens in the long run. Im sure it will do great, but I dont expect the 60k units to continue. Maybe the 300 will outsell the Camry this year?
And as for the public doesnt know about the 300's base, I doubt the 95%. At most 60%. One drove by the other day, and several customers and I talked about the 300's roots. One person said "Isnt that the car built with MB parts?" Everyone shook there head. I was surprised.
The Zeta chassis is a cheap Sigma with parts merged from the last V chassis. All the aluminum is now stamped steel to cut down on cost. Im sure that a Buick Park Ave replacment vs the 300C will be a good showdown. Do you think Buick will use a small block if the 300 has a hemi? And why doesnt C&D rag on Dodge about the pushrod Hemi and V10, but when they talk about GM, its blah blah push rods are teh sux0r :soap:
And as for the public doesnt know about the 300's base, I doubt the 95%. At most 60%. One drove by the other day, and several customers and I talked about the 300's roots. One person said "Isnt that the car built with MB parts?" Everyone shook there head. I was surprised.
The Zeta chassis is a cheap Sigma with parts merged from the last V chassis. All the aluminum is now stamped steel to cut down on cost. Im sure that a Buick Park Ave replacment vs the 300C will be a good showdown. Do you think Buick will use a small block if the 300 has a hemi? And why doesnt C&D rag on Dodge about the pushrod Hemi and V10, but when they talk about GM, its blah blah push rods are teh sux0r :soap:
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Originally posted by Big Als Z
The Zeta chassis is a cheap Sigma with parts merged from the last V chassis. All the aluminum is now stamped steel to cut down on cost.
The Zeta chassis is a cheap Sigma with parts merged from the last V chassis. All the aluminum is now stamped steel to cut down on cost.
You don't know that for a fact.
And why doesnt C&D rag on Dodge about the pushrod Hemi and V10, but when they talk about GM, its blah blah push rods are teh sux0r :soap:
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From: five-one-oh/nine-oh-nine
Originally posted by Big Als Z
I think the 60k units is great, but lets see what happens in the long run. Im sure it will do great, but I dont expect the 60k units to continue. Maybe the 300 will outsell the Camry this year?
And as for the public doesnt know about the 300's base, I doubt the 95%. At most 60%. One drove by the other day, and several customers and I talked about the 300's roots. One person said "Isnt that the car built with MB parts?" Everyone shook there head. I was surprised.
The Zeta chassis is a cheap Sigma with parts merged from the last V chassis. All the aluminum is now stamped steel to cut down on cost. Im sure that a Buick Park Ave replacment vs the 300C will be a good showdown. Do you think Buick will use a small block if the 300 has a hemi? And why doesnt C&D rag on Dodge about the pushrod Hemi and V10, but when they talk about GM, its blah blah push rods are teh sux0r :soap:
I think the 60k units is great, but lets see what happens in the long run. Im sure it will do great, but I dont expect the 60k units to continue. Maybe the 300 will outsell the Camry this year?
And as for the public doesnt know about the 300's base, I doubt the 95%. At most 60%. One drove by the other day, and several customers and I talked about the 300's roots. One person said "Isnt that the car built with MB parts?" Everyone shook there head. I was surprised.
The Zeta chassis is a cheap Sigma with parts merged from the last V chassis. All the aluminum is now stamped steel to cut down on cost. Im sure that a Buick Park Ave replacment vs the 300C will be a good showdown. Do you think Buick will use a small block if the 300 has a hemi? And why doesnt C&D rag on Dodge about the pushrod Hemi and V10, but when they talk about GM, its blah blah push rods are teh sux0r :soap: