formula79

I feel like we are back to when Sigma was talked about back in the day. People wishing for things that don't make sense. If the Cadillac version of Alpha is 3 Series...we can assume 3400-3600lbs with a lot of aluminum. I want to see how they keep the weight less than that for Camaro and offer a V6 for under $25K?

On a side note..ever wonder what weight does to performace, drive a LS3 C6 and a Camaro SS back to back. A 3400lb Camaro could come in down 75HP on the current car and still out perform it. Of course the 800lb gorilla in the room is the new Mustang which has Camaro power and 500lbs less to haul around.

Gold_Rush

Closer to 260lb difference between the GT and SS and about a 300lb difference between the v6 cars. Still significant, but it's no 500lbs.

Z28Wilson

I wouldn't expect them to keep weight to less than 3400 pounds for Camaro. Whatever cheaper, heavier parts Chevy might have on its Alpha car compared to Cadillac might be made up for in decreased content. And hopefully with economies of scale involved it can keep costs lower. After all, which other North American car is using "Zeta II" right now?

Z284ever

Every new car and truck manufactured by anyone, will have an emphasis on weight loss. Using aluminum is just one method to trim afew pounds. The REAL work comes from going through every last component and trimming .75 pounds here, 2.2 pounds there. Nothing exotic about that, just lots of hard work.

I can tell you for a fact, that the Mustang is going through that process right now for it's next gen version.


The question is not if GM can deliver a base Alpha Camaro of 3400 pounds for $25K. The question is, do they have the will to do so. If they intend to compete with the big boys, (ie., Mustang), they'd better have that will.

jg95z28

The GenV V8 will be perfect for the 6th gen. Just detune the Corvette version.
I wouldn't hold them to Alpha at this point. As you said, all manufacturers are going to be looking at ways to save vehicle weight, but keep it affordable. This includes Holden, and some sort of Aussie-American partnership for a new "budget" lighter RWD platform could benefit both Chevrolet and Holden globally. Besides, by the time the 6th rolls off the floor, the ponycar price point is going to be closer to $30k due to inflation alone.

Back to the original subject... the size of the 5th gen.

Interestingly enough, Ultimate Factories - Camaro was on again over the weekend. In it there are several sequences with the 5th gen side-by-side with a yellow '67 Camaro SS (with god awful 20+ inch rims on it ) and the 2010 did not appear to be grossly larger than its great great grandfather. Yes, it was obviously larger, however not enough IMHO for all the loathing it gets in some circles.

That said, I still think it needs to be a little more svelte if its going to be compared side by side with the Mustang.

Z284ever

What makes you say that?

99SilverSS

My only hope is that if the 6th Gen Camaro is to be on Alpha and if that is the best option available that the recent success of the 5th Gen will promote GM to do what's right for both Caddy and the Camaro. And not just Caddy with a compromised Camaro offspring. One could say that Zeta is a bit like that for the Camaro now although I think they did the best they could for the amount of time and money put into the current car.

jg95z28

Alpha may end up being a cost issue. Certainly for an alpha Cadillac, cost is less of an issue than it would be for an alpha Chevrolet. Besides, there have already been hints at alpha based Cadillac sedans, coupes, wagons and convertibles, which would certainly be enough to justify the costs of the platform.

Trying to make it affordable enough for a sub-$30K Chevrolet coupe, might jeopardize the quality that Cadillac cannot afford to sacrifice if GM intends to go up against the German cars of similar ilk.

As I was eluding in my earlier post, there are no plans for anything else on Zeta2 at the moment. It may be more cost effective at this point to downsize Zeta2 to alpha proportions (call it Zeta3 if you will) rather than trying to develop an economy version of alpha for Chevrolet.

This is just a suggestion on my part though. However, while GM may already be planning for a 6th gen Camaro, its far too early in the 5th gen's platform lifespan to say that its replacement platform is set in stone.

Look at it this way, what if by 2012, Camaro is a smashing success and its sales exceed everyone's expectations. Wouldn't GM look stupid if they then announce that they're scrapping the 5th gen Camaro and replacing it with something completely different, rather than simply tweaking a successful formula? If GM is smart they'll play both sides and then shift gears as need be when the time comes.

Z28Wilson

From the sounds of it, I don't think it's possible to re-engineer Zeta II down to Alpha size. And if it was possible, the cost to do so would not make sense when Alpha is readily available. It probably makes even less sense to run two concurrent, similar-sized yet different architectured RWD platforms.

jg95z28

Of course its possible. The question is economics. "Which path is the more economical one" is the real question.

If you buy the idea that in the future all manufacturers will need to find a way to make vehicles smaller and lighter so they are fuel efficient, which I do; then it is going to happen at some point whether alpha is available or not. All I am suggesting is that GM shouldn't be married to putting Camaro on alpha just because they are developing it for Cadillac and it is available. In fact, a better fit would be for Chevrolet to work with Holden to develop a more durable and less expensive small RWD platform, separate from the more costly Cadillac only alpha. Separating the two will allow alpha to not be limited by cost so it has a better chance of competing with BMW and Mercedes Benz; while Chevrolet and Holden can share a less expensive but more rugged platform while keeping it affordable.

Z284ever

Zeta's days as a North American product are numbered. The Camaro's Zeta 2 architecture is a lame duck. Holden will continue to develop Zeta for their own domestic and export needs. But any idea that Zeta can be re-engineered to create a smaller and lighter architecture without essentially starting from scratch is false.

Alpha for the 6th gen Camaro, just makes way too much business sense at this point.

Z284ever

I wouldn't be surprised if the ATS's starting price is $29,xxx. I think the argument that Alpha will be too pricey for a Camaro is way overstated. The business case for it is so much better than what the Camaro has going on now - that being, the only car on Zeta 2. All alone, on it's large assembly line and unique supplier base.

Chewbacca

On a weight related note, during that program one of the line supervisors / workers states that a ready-to-install Camaro dash weighs 250 lbs.

Airbags are not that heavy. A blower motor assembly is not that heavy. Neither is the cheap plastic nor the loathsome gauges.

What the hell is in that dash to make it so massive?

And does this point to A LOT of low hanging fruit left on the tree due to budget constraints?

Bob Cosby

250 lbs? That seems almost inconceivable for a dash.

JakeRobb

Two airbags, some speakers, a computer, an LCD screen, a gauge cluster, a blower motor, the radio and HVAC control panel, a bunch of HVAC ducting, valves, and vents, the metal structure that it all bolts to, the dash pad...

I wonder if the steering wheel and related stuff are included in that total. If not, I guess it's only one airbag...