A single car that has comparable perfomance to a more expensive car is not gonna make an entire division be compared to one with a different focus such as these companies are. Note the technological advances in the other car compared to the GTO. Sure it is way cheaper, but those 2 cars are out for 2 different buyers. Almost like the whole Camaro guy will buy Camaro and Corvette guy will buy Corvette arguement. The only thing that really makes it a comparison is the performance. Interior quality might be better than most other GM cars, but it is not on the level of those cars.

 

I asked for an answer purely on a business case only basis. Nothing else.

Sorry bud. GM wants to make Pontiac like BMW. They have been very open about that. If they want a BMW market, they market to BMW buyers.

I did not ask about GTO's history. GTO history is irrelevant to my question. I outlined that on my previous post. I asked for a business case standpoint. That comment is irrelevant to my question.

Find me a car that costs more than $35,000 that has hood scoops. Find me a sporty luxury car at that. You may find it extremely difficult being that there are no cars like that except for a $250,000 Ferrari 575M.

These comments are irrelevant. You not represent the entirety of all buyers. On the whole, BMW buyers do not look for hood scoops. Pontiac is not making this car to reconnect with people with restored GTOs in their garages. This is a new market for a new buyer. The people you speak of are not the buyers GM is targeting.

They are a different market. Think a little please. They are the people not in the market for BMWs. They are a specific group that would want hood scoops.

Sure thing they are. You think an M3 or CLK55 AMG buyer buys his car because he wants muscle and wants to flaunt it wherever he goes? An 02 Trans Am WS6 is having muscle and flaunting it. The GTO is having muscle but not having to show everybody.



I asked aside from GTO history. Can't you read? This is irrelevant.


I said "possibly" in my post. I thought you could read. Maybe I was mistaken.

Do I really need to repeat myself? blah blah not target audience blah blah blah. Blah blah you don't talk to the target audience and you can't represent the target audience blah blah blah.

Oh brother... Business case only here, target audience only please. I didn't ask for GTO history.


So as far as I'm concerned, you answered nothing of my questions. I rest my case here. I hope many of the readers out there see the point I am trying to make. I guess some irrational people out there will never be pleased.

 

You seem to not see what I'M saying. You can't just look at it from a business case view, the name means something. We're talking about the name of the first musclecar here. If they want what you're saying, they should've called it something else, that simple. GTO is what GTO is. If it had a different name, I wouldn't care about the scoops and lack of styling. I probably wouldn't be interested much at all. Hood designs like scoops can be done aggressive or subtle. By what you say there shouldn't be a spoiler either. Apparently though, Pontiac agrees with me and the market, as the car is getting better looks and scoops. I think this is pretty much done now.

Let's look at it from a slightly different view though, maybe you'll understand. Say Chevy says that they want to make more luxurious cars to compete with Chrysler's, such as the 300C. (a new coupe 300C that is) A luxury-type car with some muscle at a decent price. GM has a V8/RWD musclecar from a different country that can be brought here. This car looks alot like the Lumina that isn't available here. Basically, it has a little spoiler but no aggressiveness or sharp designs. It's based on softer, rounder designs seen on nearly every car on the road. It looks pretty much like every other Chevy (V6/FWD cars at that) in some ways since they changed the bumper. So they bring the car over here with it's boring everyday-car looks and more luxurious interior. Then they pick a name. Chevelle SS. Now they market this car as a competitor to the 300C because it has power, no real edge, and a pretty good interior. This new Chevelle SS is not nearly exciting as any Chevelle SS that there ever was although it has really good performance. It can be confused for an everyday Chevy, maybe even confused with some Chevys from about 6 years ago. To tell the difference you must get a good look it and it's emblems, or listen for the exhaust. When people hear about this they think of 70 Chevelle SS's right away, stripes, hood pins, dual side tips, cowl induction type hoods, cool styling, and just overall stand out looks that made the name what it is. But, for this car there is no hood, stripes, or any of the mentioned available. It features none of those things, (not even as options) because well, GM has decided that this new Chevelle SS just ain't gonna stand for what Chevelle SS has always stood for. Not what you see at shows, magazines, TV, whatever. They think it's gonna be marketed to a different audience and will have a way toned down personality rather than one of a powerful American musclecar. Not exactly everyone's idea of cool or what American muscle should be. The history of the car will be disregarded because of this new direction they want to take. But, people will be interested because the name has been brought back after all these years right?! Yeah, that's it! Even though it has the performance, the looks are incredibly lacking and do not represent the Chevelle SS name correctly. Now, this would be a car that should have had a different name. Sounds kinda familiar to me. But GM listens to the customers and decides that it would be a mistake to not put some stuff on the car that makes a Chevelle SS a Chevelle SS and decide to add numerous things for the next model year, since they had no choice on some of this the first year because of time and cost. It will add appeal/personality to the car, be more correct to it's history, and in the process make the enthusiasts and buyers satisfied. Until the car is a complete US design of course in the next Gen, when they should really be satisfied.

 

http://www.subaru.com/servlet/showro...mmand=overview

It may not cost more than 35k, but more importantly: niether does the GTO

 

Originally posted by Burmite
I asked for an answer purely on a business case only basis. Nothing else.



Sorry bud. GM wants to make Pontiac like BMW. They have been very open about that. If they want a BMW market, they market to BMW buyers.

Then they've already started on the wrong foot don't you think?

I did not ask about GTO's history. GTO history is irrelevant to my question. I outlined that on my previous post. I asked for a business case standpoint. That comment is irrelevant to my question.

What your not getting is that GTO has History

Find me a car that costs more than $35,000 that has hood scoops. Find me a sporty luxury car at that. You may find it extremely difficult being that there are no cars like that except for a $250,000 Ferrari 575M.

Not luxury but far less cash than that Ferrari=Viper and most M3 owners would put one in their garage if they could

These comments are irrelevant. You not represent the entirety of all buyers. On the whole, BMW buyers do not look for hood scoops. Pontiac is not making this car to reconnect with people with restored GTOs in their garages. This is a new market for a new buyer. The people you speak of are not the buyers GM is targeting.

Your right Pontiac isn't making the GTO because they don't make it remember its imported so why the name GTO could it be history...ding ding ding ding... try to think a little here..

They are a different market. Think a little please. They are the people not in the market for BMWs. They are a specific group that would want hood scoops.

Then why not get rid of that lame looking grill they stuck on the GTO perhaps Sunbird would have been a better name then Chevy could have had a version called the Monza oh wait there we go with history again...



Sure thing they are. You think an M3 or CLK55 AMG buyer buys his car because he wants muscle and wants to flaunt it wherever he goes?

Yes AND they want everyone to know they have money while doing it again try to think here

An 02 Trans Am WS6 is having muscle and flaunting it. The GTO is having muscle but not having to show everybody.


The GTO was/is a quick fix for uhhh read the first part of that sentence


I asked aside from GTO history. Can't you read? This is irrelevant.


Again see the problem here they have already associated it with HISTORY


Do I really need to repeat myself? blah blah not target audience blah blah blah. Blah blah you don't talk to the target audience and you can't represent the target audience blah blah blah.

Target audiance wants a more subtle name not GTO because it has history again try to think target audience here I know its hard but just try

Oh brother... Business case only here, target audience only please. I didn't ask for GTO history.

If this is the case then GM really screwed up because guess what that name has GASP HISTORY again think here from a business stand point purely business forget

So as far as I'm concerned, you answered nothing of my questions. I rest my case here. I hope many of the readers out there see the point I am trying to make. I guess some irrational people out there will never be pleased.

Irrational people would go to the car dealership thinking hey there's that new GTO I really like it because it has nothing to do with history I really wish they would have kept the name Monaro its so less aggresive than GTO.

Z~

 

If the GTO had a intercooler directly above the engine, and the only way to get air to it was with a scoop, then yes I can see the reason. people looking at STi's arent looking at BMW's.
And I have talked to many GTO owners, and they really just like the car for what it is? I dont know who you are talking to?
The first GTO had fake chrome "scoops" that were tacked on to the hood. Whats the point of the scoops? There are no more carbs. This isnt a budget race car from Pontiac anymore, and its not appealing to the muscle car kids, its appealing to thoes kids who grew up, have families, and want a GTO that is more like a BMW or MB then a Pontiac. Plenty off room, power, and if they want to get crazy, they can mod the car.

The GTO doesnt need scoops. Only people that seem to be upset about the scoop-less hood are die-hards and fbody owners.

 

Wrong. Do some research. Sure they like the car. It's new, it's the first year back, it says GTO on it, and it has power. They'd almost all like it better with some functional scoops. Ask around. And the people you mention aren't the only people that are interested in GTO's. (or that could be if it were more appealing) Look at all the companies and people interested in scoops for this car. (to correct it) How about we just go and take away things from all the names? Camaro's with no hood designs or spoilers, M*stangs with no side designs, Corvettes shaped like Impala's, Impala's designed like GTO's! Come on now. It's called brand distinction. Certain things make certain cars what they are. Hood scoops say GTO, and musclecar.

 

389 tri power carb also said GTO too, but you dont see that anymore? Cars evolve, and the GTO went away to a far away island to grow into a different car, only to be brought back and it evolved differently then if we kept the GTO here. It became more civil, became more of a sports coupe then a Muscle car.
Its Evolution, and the GTO has evolved into a luxo sports car. It doesnt need hood scoops to say that this is a GTO. Well, we will see next year, but with the strong news of the LS2 and dual side exhaust, sales could pick up a lot from this year. Personaly, I dont want to see scoops on the GTO because it would totaly turn off people looking at a smooth-lined sports coupe and now its a scooped up, novelty design.

Head over to NewAgeGTO.com, and 99% of thoes GTO owers dont really care that the GTO doesnt come with scoops.

 

I am officially done with this post LOL. I have expressed my views. Too much typing for something that we shouldn't even have to be discussing. To those who agree, cool. To those who don't, we can agree to disagree. Scoops and some actual appeal will be a good thing for it. Watch the sales and interest of the 05 compared to the rushed 04 car.

 

At least we can agree on one thing. I want to reply to your post about a Chevelle SS but I know that will only make you reply with the same broken record answer. PM me about this if you want to debate it more.

 

Just make the scoops optional...problem solved.

 

I have a WS6 and would NOT want scoops on a GTO. A little more styling would help, but not scoops.

 

I am a man of options...
Here are mine.

The new GTO...

1) is the right car - executed perfectly on GM's part, but given the WRONG NAME.

2) if given that name, should have hood scoops and aggressive, stand-out styling cues as did EVERY OTHER GTO EVER MADE - PERIOD.

It's still "either-or" in my humble opinion, not some of both.

 

Let's step back here a little...
Are we saying that hood scoops don't appeal to an older crowd?
Are we saying hood scoops don't belong on a luxury car?
Are we saying that hood scoops don't belong on a car that costs over $35k?

I can prove you wrong an all points.
It took me at least 15 seconds to think of one car that defies this, and I wemt straight to the link.
HERE IT IS Another.
I see a nicely integrated scoop on there, and it looks sweet IMO. It breaks the simplicity of the bare hood, but is not gawdy or awkward. It complements the fender gills on the side too!

I haven't even started looking outside on the street yet,and haven't done a search on the web. Do we really wanna go there?

Let's not fool ourselves here guys... if you don't want hood scoops, wheels, and aggressive styling - you really don't want a GTO, because that's what they were all about back when they were making themselves legendary. You want a TEMPEST with a big block, or a Grand Prix, or a Le Mans... but not a Goat.

 

I must admit, as much argueing as I did about the new GTO, I'm tired of having the same discussion over & Over again myself, but IMO, the bottom line is: Hood scoops or not, gills, whatever you all want to talk about, it all doesn't matter for this platform . As long as this generation of "GTO" is nothing more than a re-badged MONARO, you will never truely bring in the character of the original {as far as styling}. The only mark that I believe that they did hit with this platform was performance.

The next generation will hopefully be a different story, with GM having the freedom to fully develop the next generation, {and hopefully plan on building it on American soil } there will be a much greater degree of freedom in the car's design. But, as for now it's still a re-badged MONARO, it looks like a MONARO, it drives like a MONARO, and for all intensive purposes, it is a MONARO...

As far as the GTO competeing with other makes, I don't see that as a target goal of GM. This car is purely a low-volume "halo" car {presently}, very similar to the PT cruiser, prowler, GT500, etc etc. The car should be designed to maximize appeal and character, not mass sales volume & competition. Unless GM changes it's goal for that vehicle, it'll never be an Impala (THANK GOD) that's destined for driveways across America. Only a lucky few will ever own a GTO.

So for these reasons, I believe any discussions about styling for this platform are a moot point..