I read before that the Avg. car uses 1 gallon of gas extra for every 400 miles with the A/C on. I've heard that driving with the windows down (added drag) is worse for MPG than A/C.

 

was listening to Fox News (thru the wonders of XM radio) yesterday on my way back to Michigan.

Seems that taking the typical Honda Hybrid....12,000 miles a year of 'average' driving.....and comparing it to a NON-Hybrid............would take over 17 years to pay for itself in saved fuel.............

Hmmmmmmmmmm.............


and you're right...it won't be on the evening news! AND....I wouldn't be a bit surprised that people think it's 'cute' that it needs reprogrammed.......the same people that would take Ford or GM to Lemon Law.........

(there goes my bloodpressure again.....)

 

Ok... #1 it's FOX news.... so take it with a pinch of salt .

Joking aside though, folk who buy Hybrids currently - the early adopters, they know this; they buy Hybrids because they know they are using less gas and producing less CO2 - that is the #1 important thing to them. Recall there are tax breaks for people with hybrids too. As more hybrids come into use and as the technology becomes more mainstream - cost goes down as with any 'new' technology. Plus who knows how much is a gal of gasolene going to cost 4 years from now?

I'm not saying Hybrids are the be all and end all, at the very least they represent the concept that people are becomming aware of the fact we need to do something to curb pollution and CO2 emissions. If they give way to superior technology later, that's fine by me.

But yeah, if GM had hybrids and they had faults like the Prius... the press would be all over them and not in good way. Just another example of how crap our mainstream media is - reporting *facts* and leaving out the spin whether left or right or green or purple... is something they fail to do because they're all about sensationalism.

 

Hmmm....thanks for the pitch.

Of course, XM is the satelite radio provider that won't offer Howard Stern?

Kudos to Sirius for offering actual content.


GM has actually been very aggressive (perhaps too aggressive?) in pursuing the untested hybrid market. So while some uninformed pundits tend to berate GM for being "behind" in hybrids, I might say that GM is well on it's way to being a bit ahead of any real market demand.

We should all remember that the Honda struggled to sell a measley 1,000 Civic Hybrids in the United Kingdom where gasoline costs three times as much as in the United States.

 

In the UK, the general perception is that American cars are gas guzlers - esp. in the case of SUVs and trucks; whereas most cars sold in the UK are more fuel efficient compact 1.5 -2 .0 liter FWD, 4 bangers. So naturally those folk tend to to feel their cars are already fairly efficient. Personally, I would feel afraid to drive such a small underpowered tin-can on American roads .

 

Actually a 4cyl. Accord only cost $191 more a year to fuel over 15,000mi.(vs. 12,000 in the news report) The cost differnce from a Hybrid accord and a 4 cyl. is like $8000. CO2 emissions are almost the same.

Sure gas prices might go up, but also look at repair cost in your total cost of ownership. Hybrid resale might also suck big in 5 years once people see how much they are to fix.

source = http://www.fueleconomy.gov

Wow, for once I agree with you They only hybrid I want to buy is a XM/Sirrus deck in my next Camaro

 

You call Howard Stern "content"? I call it garbage disguised as a radio program.

You go on listening to Fox News, Scott. They are not IMO part of the traditional "main stream media", aka MSM.

 

Woa... you have to qualify those figures.

From the website:

"The greenhouse gas estimates presented here are "full fuel-cycle estimates" and include the three major greenhouse gases emitted by motor vehicles: carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, and methane. Full fuel-cycle estimates consider all steps in the use of a fuel, from production and refining to distribution and final use. This gives a more complete picture of how using a particular fuel contributes to global warming"

"* Based on 45% highway driving, 55% city driving, 15000 annual miles and the price of fuel used by the vehicle. You may customize these values to reflect the price of fuel in your area and your own driving patterns."

Now the site says in terms of greenhous gas in tons/yr:

4.1 for the hybrid Civic with $699 per year fuel costs.
4.9 for the non-nybrid Civic with $860 per year fuel costs.

Besides the fact that whole fuel cycle is considered in those EPA numbers... and not just end use, the problem with saying Hybrids are the same WRT to CO2 is that EPA data is is based on 45% highway/55% city usage. Highway driving which is where hybrids like the Civic loose their advantage and wind up no better than a non-hybrid. If you use your car for 10% highway and 90% city commuting within an urban environmet which is stop start driving and plenty of it, the fuel savings go up significantly. I KNOW because I've seen firsthand that my bud gets 45-48 mpg in his Civic hybrid - that's approx 40% better than the non hybrid version yields in the same driving conditions.

So I'll say it again, Hyrbrids are not the be all and end all and the solution for all pur troubles. But for some folk they do make sense and do yeild the mpg ratings that they have become 'infamous' for.

Heh... I'm not saying you ought to be made to drive a hybrid Z28x .

 

I did a speech on this last semester, if you're speaking of $$ strictly speaking, Hybrids make no sense econimically. If you want a daily driver that gets good gas milage it would make more sense to buy a non-hybrid Civic or a Ion, Carolla, etc. Dont remember the exact numbers but it would take a Looooong time to make up the price difference between a Ion and a Prius. Its strictly Ideology

 

why not diesel+electric?

 

What are you talking about? Name one hybrid that loses 35% gas milage because the A/C is on? My Insight averaged at most 5 MPG difference with the A/C on when I had that. I would also like to know of any N/A vehicle, deisel or gasoline, that you can get 35% BETTER gas milage than the EPA rates it at? There are people with Insights that are doing that right now. I've even been able to get 100+ MPG trips out of my insight for 50+ miles...not bad for a car rated at 56 MPG.
Nobody is twisting your arm...you don't have to, thats the great thing about this country And like you said...the jury is still out...

As manufacturers work on efficiency of production, and buy parts to make hybrid motors in bigger bulk, yes prices will go down. Right now part of the reason prices are so high is because its still relatively new technology that fills a very 'niche' market. Not to mention that owning a hybrid is a "luxury." You always pay more for luxuries...

You turn on the A/C, radio, wind shield wipers, etc on any regular vehicle and you lose efficiency there too, I don't know what your argument is here...

Ummm...sure. It was a marketing strategy, whats the deal? If GM did something where they gave hollywood stars F-bodies to drive and I said you bought a Camaro just so you could be hip like a moviestar, would I have pin pointed you? No, you bought a Camaro because you liked the vehicle, not because Justin Timberlake drives it.

Why reinvent the wheel? Because the wheel is getting smaller every revolution it makes! Soon it won't be there anymore... (going along with your metaphor)
Did you happen to look at the performance difference?It all depends on the type of driving you do. If you do all city driving the price difference is made up for in just a few years...if you do mix city/highway almost 50/50, then it takes like 6-8 years depending on the car.

But then again that doesn't take into account the joys people might have of owning a hybrid car...that might pay for itself in the long run. Does owning a V8 Camaro pay off from owning a V6??

 

I disagree.

1) Early cars didn't even have heaters or air conditioners. My grandpa's first car was when he lived in Manitoba. To stay warm, he put hot rocks on the floorboards and brought blankets.

2) What better way to flood the market than by selling them as a loss leader? They'd take decades to sell if they were marked up for profit.

3) Only Europeans like diesels. Having worked with them, it's true. Car & Driver is the same way. Csere loves them. Bedard hates them. Europeans would run their cars on coal and firewood if it meant they saved 10 cents on fuel. North Americans want clean cars, not diesel stinkers. This is why hybrid will take off much more than diesel will.

4) Small potatoes. We've all had cars that had recalls or defects at some point. People used to say that fuel injection was crap and that carbs were much easier to use.

 

Bwah, forgot to address this as well earlier...
I would like to know where you got this information from considering that Toyota announced when they came out that they would actually make a small profit on the second generation Prius'.

 

I thought it was common knowledge, but here you go:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/dir...w/.ef600b1/138
http://www.detnews.com/2003/insiders...c01-284919.htm
http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_...m?scriptFramed

I can find more if that's not enough...

 

How is this even remotely relevant? We live in 2005, not 1915. Cars need heat and a/c and modern consumers are not going to go with out. They'd rather eat the gasoline consumption than sweat.

Exactly. Or stated another way they'd never sell in serious quantities if their true costs of production were reflected in the price, and as long as legitimate, cheaper alternatives are available. I don't see the legitimate alternatives going away any time soon.

Lets see, new EPA regs for diesels cut particulate emissions substantially. That plus low sulfur diesel fuel make diesels much more attractive than they used to be. So you are saying Diesel will NEVER gain acceptance here? Is that a bit short sighted? The issue is not emissions, the issue is fuel consumption and cost to your wallet. In that respect when you combine cost of the car plus fuel costs the diesel wins vs. the hybrid every time.

Its not small potatoes when its factored in with the rest of the issues. Sure any individual issue taken by itself may seem small, but NOTHING happens in a vacuum and you have to consider this latest thing in the context of the whole hybrid fad.

FWIW the radio station I listen to in the mornings just ran the Prius stalling story on their news segment.