Although I kidded about the Volt's tax credit,, IMHO, all this money going to tax credits and investments in battery technology should instead go to establishing a Natrual Gas infrastructure here in the US and giving incentives towards the purchase of cars powered by CNG.

Continuing to import as much oil as we do leaves our fuel prices (and economy) venerable ot outside forces, so that's a national security issue. Right now, the US's number 1 export is...wait for it....Processed Fuels....ie: gasoline!!. That tells you that the issue is not shortages, it's that oil companies are utilizing excess capacity not by cutting prices to spur demand, but by using excess capacity to sell finished products overseas while keeping the prices of product here in the US high.

Meanwhile, about 90-95% of the rare earth minerals that are required for battery production is in China. Last year they randomly decided to cut production... and prices skyrocketed.

But even though it takes more CNG to get the same mileage as gasoline, CNG is still essentially dirt cheap, North America is still one of the planet's biggest producers (in fact, we have to CUT production because there isn't enough being sold), it all essentially pollution free, and we already have vehicles that run on the stuff and it'd be dirt cheap (cheaper than a diesel engine) to convert automobiles to run on the stuff.

The Volt is a neet piece of technology, and I fully understand why GM needs it. Although it makes no financial sense on a conventional level, on a public relations level it's far cheaper press than what it would take in advertisements.

Most all decision makers and consumer leaders have an ultimate facination with the newest gadget and the latest technology, and want to push the US towards being a leader in technology fields. That's why the obcession with Hybrids, electric propulsion, and even fusion. But these aren't going to replace gasoline or oil. CNG can.

Promoting made in America technology is great. Hybrid and electric propulsion is "glamourous". I've changed my opinion on the Volt from almost hostile to also being amazed by it. But, each dollar spent on inflated and speculated gasoline prices or money paying for expensive battery technology is money that's not being spent buying products that are manufactured or are serviced here in this country.

Tax breaks to people buying a Volt (all joking and chiding aside), or Prius, or any other expensive car really isn't solving anything. Sonner or later, those $10,000 tax breaks are going to end, and the vehicles are going to have to be able to sell on their own, be profitable, and be cost effective to the average buyer.

They won't.

But natural gas easily will.

 

A volt running on American natural gas would be nice.

 

I agree with you Guy, especially on oil being a national security issue. I don't think Natural Gas is the long-term answer, as it is still a fossil fuel that we don't have an infinite supply of, and it though cleaner than oil or certainly coal, it still puts quite a bit of CO2 in the air. However, it is probably the best option right now....for a number of reasons. A drawback....infrastructure...big issue right now.

 

The question is, how long is CNG a viable alternative, and whether or not it is cost effective to invest in the infrastructure required to process, deliver and sell it to consumers on a larger scale. Even here in California where the State has invested in CNG vehicles, the locations where you can buy CNG are few and far between.

For the longer term, I think biofuels are becoming more affordable to manufacture and provided they don't rely on using food stock to produce (e.g. biodiesel produced from switchgrass, effluent, and algae, etc.) then they may be a better substitute for fossil fuels, which have a limited capacity. EVs would still have a place for short/in-town trips, but we'll still need something to extend their range and/or an alternative for longer trips. And unlike CNG, the infrastructure to transport and sell biofuels is essentially already there. The investment is in manufacturing and vehicle designs/conversions.

 

Thorium laser cars...

 

CNG is not a good alternative for your average person. The infrastructure is not there and by the time it is built out, NG will have all the draw backs that gasoline does today. As long as batteries keep getting better and cheaper then I think EVs and Plug-in hybrids will be the way to go for most. Maybe CNG will be used for vehicles that never leave a city/town/county like Police, EMS, DPW vehicles. Or vehicles that have a fixed route and never need to drive more than a tanks worth of fuel in a day (delivery trucks, garbage trucks, city/school buses).

 

Damn skippy, especially if you divert some of that laser power through the headlights. I64 Laser Death Machine has a really nice ring to it!

 

I agree that CNG seems like it would be promising. Cheap(er), plentiful, domestically sourced....biggest sticking point with any of these alternative fuels is infrastructure. It's the very reason why we're beating our heads against the wall with batteries, we insist on trying to fit new technology in with current infrastructure. NOBODY has wanted to commit to a new energy source for vehicles that is truly game-changing, for whatever reason. And a commitment is what it's going to take.

The infrastructure argument is like arguing that we can't get to the moon because we don't have a shuttle built, so why bother. If the automakers got together with the gov't and made a commitment to build more CNG vehicles over the next 10-20 years, clearly the infrastructure would start being built. And I'm not saying CNG is necessarily THE solution, I'm just saying that the same could be said for any fuel source not named gasoline.

 

That's not really a valid comparison.

To build the infrastructure requires a financial commitment by the CNG distributors to modify existing gas stations to add CNG, or to construct new dual purpose stations. Unless there is a serious increase in the demand for CNG, or unless the gov't pays them to do so, they aren't going to make the investment, especially in the current recession with shareholders demanding bigger profits.

Keep in mind, the majority of the top CNG producers are also oil companies. If there's more profit to be made selling gasoline and diesel, they're going to continue to push those products over CNG for the consumer auto industry unless pushed to change, or unless CNG becomes more profitable.

People are already up in arms about the record profits oil companies are making; just imagine the backlash if the gov't began giving financial intensives to these same companies to increase CNG distribution. We're going to need to see fuel prices climb so high that people's driving habits drop drastically and oil companies are forced make changes to try to recover lost profits brought on by a decrease in the demand for fuel. Only then will you start to see a major investment by big oil to change to alternative fuel sources.

 

All I was trying to demonstrate was that we will never have a switch to a different fuel source if we don't have a commitment from all parties to do so. And you're right, we may never get a commitment like that unless something drastic happens. But I could definitely see investment being made by CNG distributors if more CNG vehicles were built. I don't exactly think demand for vehicles that run on something other than gasoline would be small, if vehicle MSRPs are equivalent and the fuel is cheaper.

 

IMO all the talk of infrastructure is nearly pointless, any alternative is going to cause a boost in infrastructure. Even if we are talking electrics you either have agonizingly slow charging off 110volt or people need to have some wiring done at home, then there is the greater demand on the electric infrastructure which in some areas already has to resort to rolling blackouts and such during high demand times. If you are going to start adding wiring to people's homes you could consider CNG filling at home too since a good portion of the population particularly in colder climates have natural gas to the home already. Do a little plumbing instead of wiring.

The real issue is bureaucrats whop don't understand anything want to control everything, they make rules with "good intentions"" but are too stupid to actually write something effective. I saw an article about how some of the latest "fuel economy" legislation could actually cause cars to get bigger because the regulation was a little less stringent on cars with a larger "footprint". Don't get me wrong, I don't want smaller cars. The point is they want to push fuel economy but are so stupid they endup potentially pushing things the other way. It may not pan out with the middleeast troubles giving an excuse to push oil higher.

Also an element of those in power do NOT want any problems truly solved, because if they were solved what would they have left to try and control? Sort of the fireman who starts the fire scenario, same problem destroying manufacturing.

 

It isn't that easy. CNG need a compressor to be put into cars. A 240v/30amp outlet is a lot cheaper to install than the CNG compressor.

 

Like I said it is adding infrastructure either way.
Say home compressors are not particularly feasible. Natural gas lines still run all over in colder climates distribution network is basically in place, it would not be that big a deal to put compressors and "surge" tanks at gas stations. Yes it would cost money but like I said any alternative is going to require some infrastructure investment.

I said "surge tanks" because I feel such a thing could help the existing pipelines supply a growing need, have some volume stored on site and replenished at times of low demand.

 

The cost of a 240v/30amp outlet in 10,000 homes is roughly the equivalent of adding a new CNG fueling station. Discussing the adding of infrastructure needs to include all the costs to be worth anything.

Besides, most homes already have a 240v outlet. Its also a heck of a lot safer than adding a home-brewed CNG pump in one's garage. Even if it were dirt cheap, I'd never want a CNG pump in my home.

 

Yes most homes have 240v outlets somewhere but not in the garage. Like I said the extra load on the existing infrastructure would need to be considered as well, some areas already have electrical supply issues.