Possible 5th gen news from a very reliable source
06-20-2002, 01:09 AM
#16
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(DISCLAIMER: These are all more or less either rumors I've heard and/or my opinions as somebody who observes the auto industry with much interest. I welcome and encourage any criticism/flames/anything you've got.)
The "Mid-Lux" is a platform that's long been in development (or at least in planning). I've been hearing about it for the past three years at least! I believe for a while it was rumored to be a new rear-wheel drive platform, and then the news was that it was going to be the next-generation midsize FWD platform, and now it's back to RWD. If Guion is right, then it's the next-gen V chassis and thus RWD. The rumors that have accompanied the Mid-Lux rumors were that both the Impala and Monte were to go to that chassis.
From time to time the name Caprice comes up. Sometimes I'd hear that it will be the new FWD car as Impala goes to rear-wheel, other times it's going to be the rear-wheel import from Australia. I wouldn't be surprised if the Caprice came back as a rear-wheel car again. If it does, would it be a more luxurious trim for the Impala? Probably. As a police car? Depends on how the drivetrain thing goes. If Impala is to be the rear-wheel drive car, I believe that'll be the candidate for the "9C1" package.
But then again, things have really changed and GM might be more interested in reducing the number of similar products within each product line. If that's the case, we're looking at the upper-trim full-size sedan (Impala), the upper-trim mid/full-size coupe (Monte), the midsize bread and butter sedan and basically confirmed wagon (Malibu), and the sports car, Corvette. For Chevrolet to justify ever producing a Camaro again, some things need to happen.
First and foremost, demand. With what we're hearing about Pontiac's Solstice, GTO and WRX-derived car, as well as offerings from Cadillac, they might say there's no justification for a Chevrolet version (other than a limited-production car along the lines of an SSR).
Let's say that we keep the letters flowing to GM and the people talking to the guys at the car shows and dealerships. So what comes next? A new design. There's no room in the future lineup for a car with the Camaro's dimensions. My theory (and hope) is that a smaller hatchback coupe, maybe 140-150" long, gets passed the torch, with a new set of high-feature V6 and of course small block V8 options.
For a mass-production Camaro to work, we're going to need to probably let go of the "V8 only" deal. Most of the production will be V6 cars, probably two of them, a low-output and a high-output engine (maybe 240 and 280 HP respectively). The limited edition cars (Z28, of course!) will be the small-block powered cars, and I suspect that they'll probably be lower displacement Corvette engines (5.7 vs. 6.0).
So what do I think is next for the Camaro's image (And if any of you care after all that blasphemy...)? Not much muscle car anymore, except for comparing this car's formula to the original car's formula (4 seat GT car, Corvette for three friends). The closest comparison would have to be a 300ZX. By then, however, the new Z car and the new Supra will have been out. Maybe this will work out fine.
(You may now flame me senseless.)
The "Mid-Lux" is a platform that's long been in development (or at least in planning). I've been hearing about it for the past three years at least! I believe for a while it was rumored to be a new rear-wheel drive platform, and then the news was that it was going to be the next-generation midsize FWD platform, and now it's back to RWD. If Guion is right, then it's the next-gen V chassis and thus RWD. The rumors that have accompanied the Mid-Lux rumors were that both the Impala and Monte were to go to that chassis.
From time to time the name Caprice comes up. Sometimes I'd hear that it will be the new FWD car as Impala goes to rear-wheel, other times it's going to be the rear-wheel import from Australia. I wouldn't be surprised if the Caprice came back as a rear-wheel car again. If it does, would it be a more luxurious trim for the Impala? Probably. As a police car? Depends on how the drivetrain thing goes. If Impala is to be the rear-wheel drive car, I believe that'll be the candidate for the "9C1" package.
But then again, things have really changed and GM might be more interested in reducing the number of similar products within each product line. If that's the case, we're looking at the upper-trim full-size sedan (Impala), the upper-trim mid/full-size coupe (Monte), the midsize bread and butter sedan and basically confirmed wagon (Malibu), and the sports car, Corvette. For Chevrolet to justify ever producing a Camaro again, some things need to happen.
First and foremost, demand. With what we're hearing about Pontiac's Solstice, GTO and WRX-derived car, as well as offerings from Cadillac, they might say there's no justification for a Chevrolet version (other than a limited-production car along the lines of an SSR).
Let's say that we keep the letters flowing to GM and the people talking to the guys at the car shows and dealerships. So what comes next? A new design. There's no room in the future lineup for a car with the Camaro's dimensions. My theory (and hope) is that a smaller hatchback coupe, maybe 140-150" long, gets passed the torch, with a new set of high-feature V6 and of course small block V8 options.
For a mass-production Camaro to work, we're going to need to probably let go of the "V8 only" deal. Most of the production will be V6 cars, probably two of them, a low-output and a high-output engine (maybe 240 and 280 HP respectively). The limited edition cars (Z28, of course!) will be the small-block powered cars, and I suspect that they'll probably be lower displacement Corvette engines (5.7 vs. 6.0).
So what do I think is next for the Camaro's image (And if any of you care after all that blasphemy...)? Not much muscle car anymore, except for comparing this car's formula to the original car's formula (4 seat GT car, Corvette for three friends). The closest comparison would have to be a 300ZX. By then, however, the new Z car and the new Supra will have been out. Maybe this will work out fine.
(You may now flame me senseless.)
06-20-2002, 01:00 PM
#17
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cmc:
My theory (and hope) is that a smaller hatchback coupe, maybe 140-150" long[/B]</font>
My theory (and hope) is that a smaller hatchback coupe, maybe 140-150" long[/B]</font>
------------------
Mark
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06-20-2002, 01:05 PM
#18
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
Also another side note. There is no basis to the "if GTO fails Firebird will come back" senario. This is like saying if Monte Carlo fails, then Camaro will come back. Sounds pretty silly doesn't it?
</font>
Also another side note. There is no basis to the "if GTO fails Firebird will come back" senario. This is like saying if Monte Carlo fails, then Camaro will come back. Sounds pretty silly doesn't it?
</font>
06-20-2002, 02:38 PM
#20
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by R377:
Oshawa is in Ontario, eh
?
</font>
Oshawa is in Ontario, eh
?</font>
OOOHHHH, MY BAD!!! I was really tired when I posted that. Forgive me.
As for the Mid-Lux, I've always heard FWD.
I believe a new Camaro is closer than we think. Its just too signifigant of a car to throw away.
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"THE F_O_G HAS RISEN, AND WITH IT BEGINS THE DAWN OF A NEW ERA."
1967-2002, Thanks for 35 years of prestige and performance...... We look forward to the FUTURE.
06-20-2002, 02:51 PM
#21
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z28Wilson:
The next Camaro most certainly has to be smaller on the outside, but I highly doubt they can lop off 40 or 50 inches from the current car. 140-150 inches is pocket-rocket territory, which a Camaro isn't.
</font>
The next Camaro most certainly has to be smaller on the outside, but I highly doubt they can lop off 40 or 50 inches from the current car. 140-150 inches is pocket-rocket territory, which a Camaro isn't.
</font>
06-20-2002, 06:17 PM
#22
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Maybe 140 is too small, but I think at least 12 inches need to be cut off the length of the current car, but I'd prefer 18-24". Basically it's just got to be a desirable, refined car for reasons other than being #2 to Corvette. It's got to offer different benefits, be better in different areas.
06-20-2002, 07:57 PM
#23
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The HO V6 option hopefully would include a "desirable" engine, maybe one with a higher red line than the current one, with a good, flat torque curve (instead of the one that the 3.8L has) and a great sound. I hope I am not disappointed by the upcoming GM "high-feature" 3.6, and hopefully it catches the eye of a potential Camaro engineer...
[This message has been edited by cmc (edited June 20, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by cmc (edited June 20, 2002).]
06-21-2002, 02:08 PM
#24
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
Hey Guion,
Isn't the Mid-Lux based on the updated FWD W-body...or have things changed?
</font>
Hey Guion,
Isn't the Mid-Lux based on the updated FWD W-body...or have things changed?
</font>
Seems the W body (or at least it's designation) may be phased out towards the end of the decade.
06-21-2002, 03:53 PM
#25
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FUTURE_OF_GM:
Okay, I have it from my most accurate source that GM is studying the possiblility of producing the GTO, the Holden Ute (As an El Camino) and another Chevrolet CAR at the Linden New Jersey plant beginning in 2006. This would both help the strained Elizabeth City plant in Austrailia, and appease the UAW at the same time.
Think about it, 2006ish is supposed to be the debut of the new affordable RWD platform, and all of these vehicles would be RWD and 2 door. Not to count this would allow the Camaro to go back to more of a 1st gen like configuration.
This is ample time for a Camaro to be approved and designed.... The hard engineering work only takes 12-18 months.
</font>
Okay, I have it from my most accurate source that GM is studying the possiblility of producing the GTO, the Holden Ute (As an El Camino) and another Chevrolet CAR at the Linden New Jersey plant beginning in 2006. This would both help the strained Elizabeth City plant in Austrailia, and appease the UAW at the same time.
Think about it, 2006ish is supposed to be the debut of the new affordable RWD platform, and all of these vehicles would be RWD and 2 door. Not to count this would allow the Camaro to go back to more of a 1st gen like configuration.
This is ample time for a Camaro to be approved and designed.... The hard engineering work only takes 12-18 months.
</font>
06-21-2002, 10:57 PM
#26
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guionM,
Linden,NJ produces S-10s and Sonomas. But so does Shreavesport,LA. And with the expansion of the Shreavesport plant for the 2004 Colorado, all s-series pickup production is scheduled for the renovated and expanded Shreavesport plant. But that doesn't take into account the rumor that GMC may be getting a version of the Colorado. Dealers are begging for it. It remains to be seen if the Shreavesport plant can sustain BOTH the Colorado AND a GMC variant. If it can't, then it would make sense to me that they would continue to use the Linden plant for extra capacity.
But of course this is just me speculating. Only the part about the Colorado being produced in Shreavesport and the dealers begging for a GMC variant are known to be true.
Linden,NJ produces S-10s and Sonomas. But so does Shreavesport,LA. And with the expansion of the Shreavesport plant for the 2004 Colorado, all s-series pickup production is scheduled for the renovated and expanded Shreavesport plant. But that doesn't take into account the rumor that GMC may be getting a version of the Colorado. Dealers are begging for it. It remains to be seen if the Shreavesport plant can sustain BOTH the Colorado AND a GMC variant. If it can't, then it would make sense to me that they would continue to use the Linden plant for extra capacity.
But of course this is just me speculating. Only the part about the Colorado being produced in Shreavesport and the dealers begging for a GMC variant are known to be true.
06-22-2002, 01:01 AM
#27
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FUTURE_OF_GM:
and appease the UAW at the same time.
</font>
and appease the UAW at the same time.
</font>
06-22-2002, 09:14 AM
#28
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ponchoV8:
WTF does the UAW have to say now? Seems to me they are more of a problem than a solution whenever I see any of the Big Three try to compete against imports. Getting paid $20+/hr to bolt-on wheels all day doesn't seem like grounds to complain about anything and with all the quality issues domestic cars have, you'd think they could bolt parts on properly. No friggin wonder the Big Three are moving their plants abroad and the new import plants coming here have no UAW influence.</font>
WTF does the UAW have to say now? Seems to me they are more of a problem than a solution whenever I see any of the Big Three try to compete against imports. Getting paid $20+/hr to bolt-on wheels all day doesn't seem like grounds to complain about anything and with all the quality issues domestic cars have, you'd think they could bolt parts on properly. No friggin wonder the Big Three are moving their plants abroad and the new import plants coming here have no UAW influence.</font>
06-22-2002, 09:46 AM
#29
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Seems there is a reason why overseas automakers who open plants here do so away from areas where the UAW has a strong hold.
It's also worth noting that when given the vote to unionize, the workers in these plants seem to be generally against unionizing, but you can't demonize all UAW. Saturn, though put together by the UAW, seems to be well assembled cars and to the best of my knowledge have had few assembly related problems (it's just my impression, not iron clad fact).
I think it's more the relationship between the company and worker representatives that determines quality.
It's also worth noting that when given the vote to unionize, the workers in these plants seem to be generally against unionizing, but you can't demonize all UAW. Saturn, though put together by the UAW, seems to be well assembled cars and to the best of my knowledge have had few assembly related problems (it's just my impression, not iron clad fact).
I think it's more the relationship between the company and worker representatives that determines quality.
06-22-2002, 08:20 PM
#30
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ponchoV8:
WTF does the UAW have to say now? Seems to me they are more of a problem than a solution whenever I see any of the Big Three try to compete against imports. Getting paid $20+/hr to bolt-on wheels all day doesn't seem like grounds to complain about anything and with all the quality issues domestic cars have, you'd think they could bolt parts on properly. No friggin wonder the Big Three are moving their plants abroad and the new import plants coming here have no UAW influence.</font>
WTF does the UAW have to say now? Seems to me they are more of a problem than a solution whenever I see any of the Big Three try to compete against imports. Getting paid $20+/hr to bolt-on wheels all day doesn't seem like grounds to complain about anything and with all the quality issues domestic cars have, you'd think they could bolt parts on properly. No friggin wonder the Big Three are moving their plants abroad and the new import plants coming here have no UAW influence.</font>
I do not agree one bit with a union that is powerful enough to make GMs decisions for them. UAW is the exact reason that the Holden/Buick program got killed a few years ago. And if it comes to GM surviving, or the union having their way..... I say move all the friggin' plants to Mexico.
------------------
"THE F_O_G HAS RISEN, AND WITH IT BEGINS THE DAWN OF A NEW ERA."
1967-2002, Thanks for 35 years of prestige and performance...... We look forward to the FUTURE.