Jason E

Lately, people in the know such as Brendan and Guy have been hinting Pontiac may be on the chopping block...

I don't want to believe it, but then I think about the valid point guion made about Pontiac offering nothing tangible over Chevy...then I think about the canning of Zeta which kills off GTO (unless Holden makes the new model too)and the "G8"...then I think about no U.S. Sunfire replacement (aka Pontiac Cobalt)...and the re-positioning of Saturn into a similar market segment as Pontiac. I mean lets face it...Olds and Pontiac were eating off the same plate in the late '90s. If Saturn is going where Olds was, that means the same thing then...or else Pontiac is DOA.

I don't know if certain people can share anything outright. I'm great with hints though Anything is appreciated...right now, to say I'm lost is an understatement. By the way guion, this was originally a PM to you...clean out your box

91_z28_4me

I don't know if the G8 is actually dead. The Memo and other articles said nothing about it specfically. 'Zeta' may be dead in NA but not in Aus. The production and purchasing of all the tooling is being done as we speak. I think they are expected to shut down for a while but they will be spitting out new cars as early as September on Zeta. Now why couldn't the G8 and Monaro be made there. Also remember Zeta may be build by Daewoo for the China and Indonesian markes freeing up some production capacity. The G8 may VERY well still be alive. Like Guy said if you don't here of a press release saying it is dead then it is probably still alive.

Chris 96 WS6

It would seem to me if GM's biggest concern is market share, then killing off another brand is the worst thing you could do.

You are looking at killing off what, aside from CHevy would be GM's largest dealer network, and regardless of advertising and such, its having dealers in good locations that sells cars.

However, if GM's goal is to get healthy financially and they're OK if their marketshare falls below Toyota's, then its probably a good move.

I see a point where it might be Chevy/Saturn/Cadillac and that's it (apart from the . You can pump all the new product into Buick you want but its still Buick...I am going to be a doubter on the Buick makeover until someone proves me otherwise.

Z284ever

If GM market share keeps slipping, both Buick and Pontiac are in very serious jeopardy.

If GM's share gets to, or near 20%....consider them both gone. At 20-22% market share, GM will go broke, with an infrastructure designed for 30-40% market share.

I sure hope GM gets it worked out, I still haven't gotten over Oldsmobile yet.

Z28x

Pontaic is GMs 3rd best selling brand. I really think it would be foolish to kill them off, but at the same time I can see they are moving Saturn right into that sporty/near lux segment that Pontiac should be in.

Shouldn't GM be set up for volume, and not market share? Pontiac is a north American Brand, but Buick is big in China. It would be weird to see Buicks being sold over sees and not here.

NikiVee

Let's kill off another GM division that has been around since 1907 and replace it with a company that has NO HERITAGE that has been around for 15 yrs and with medicore product. That makes a lot sense. But then again I wouldn't be surprised. It seems GM has forgotten alot about where it came from.

GM is lost IMHO. .

Jason E

Not that I am doubting you at all on this one...just curious as to the logic here. I can see Buick gone, but why Pontiac? Is it because of the re-positioning of Saturn? Why would you axe your second best-selling car line? To me, of all the GM divisions only Pontiac and Caddy have strong images in people's minds.

I don't know what you can share, but if you can give me some more insight here I'd appreciate it...whether it be PM or on here. Pontiac getting the axe is making me VERY nervous. I was mad about Olds, too...but Pontiac? That's a line that to me, GM CAN'T cross and have anything good come from it.

HAZ-Matt

I agree.

Good Ph.D

What I really don't understand was what was the point of axeing Olds... Only to dump billions into saturn... so instead of overlapping with Chevy... It will overlap with Pontiac and Buick like Olds did?

WTF?

formula79

I think some brands run their course. Oldmobile just was not cool....and it even said "old" in the name. Plus unlike Cadillac, dumping billions did not help....at least up to the point where GM exed it.

Do I want Pontiac to go? Hell no....I almost always would drive a Pontiac over any GM car. I would dump Saturn, and give Chevy cars that can compete in percieved quality with Toyota. Current Chevy's are veiewed a class below.

That being said, the signs are omininous....

They don't have a competive small car besides the Vibe (which could be rebranded easy)

The Bonneville is dead. G8 is now in limbo and could be axed.

The new Grand Prix quickly growing old in the tooth and at the least needs a new interior. W-body replacement is at least 5 years out.

G6 is a class below Altima, Accord, and Camry and it is showing in sales.

The next GTO is a done deal design wise (and it is a stunner from what I hear), but it could take a year or four beyond the current GTO's self life to get it to market because of the platform mess. We of all people know how "hiatus" can be.

Solsticle would be 3-4 years in it's lifecycle before Pontiac was shuddered...enough time to rebadge it.

There are now plans to dump $3 billion in Pontiac like Buick is getting...or $5 Billion like Saturn is getting.

Long story short....if you take the entusiast hat off for a moment, everything is aligned properly to axe Pontiac in the case of a Bankruptcy when you look at it from a business perpective...which I am sure GM is

Last of a Breed

Ok, I'm not too sure about this but isn't Pontiac the 2nd largest dealer network that GM has besides Chevy? So why axe your 2nd best car division with the 2nd highest number of dealers? To me, if Lutz wanted Pontiac to be the American BMW, than why not axe Saturn and/or Buick (I'd rather neither get axed, just thinking hypothetically)and use the resources there to actually make Pontiac top of the line? So in essence you have Caddy at the top, Pontiac in the middle with class, luxury and performance ala BMW, and Chevy that produces quality, mainstream vehicles with a nice performance car or two in their lineup (Vette and Camaro)? GM could merge Hummer/GMC/Chevy Trucks into one brand, and have the other 3 divisions attack the car market. To me, axing Pontiac would be a huge mistake and would turn me off from GM save for the Vette and some hot Caddy offerings, if I could afford it. I really hope the doom and gloom does not come to pass.

Z284ever

It's not a matter of wanting to share or not Jason.....I just don't think those decisions are made yet.

Raven99

If Pontiac gets axed, it will break my heart I don't know how I could recover from something like that happening

kefkafloyd

I bet R. E. Olds is rolling over in his grave. Oldsmobile wasn't having any problems until the late 80s, for whatever reason. Wait, I think I know what that reason was... crappy cars! That cheap A-body Ciera did Olds no favors, neither did the lack of Rocket powered rear-drivers.

How many people (who were not over the age of 40) knew that the Oldsmobile logo was a freaking rocket?

guionM

Just to clarify, no one has said Pontiac or ANY GM division is on the chopping block. No one has hinted at such either.

However...

The facts are that if GM's market share drops any more (20% is the magic number) GM simply can not sustain the multitude of divisions it has, and it's going to either have to trim divisions, or combine them as far as marketing. GM is already there, if you discount fleet, rental, and employee & industry discounted sales.

It's logical that the divisions that are redundant will be the 1st to go. That's exactly what happened to Olds. It was to a large degree a weaker Buick or Cadillac, despite a truckful of money spent on engines and chassis unique to them.

NO ONE wants to see Pontiac cut just like no one wanted to see Oldsmobile die. But todays market can't sustain repetitous brands as it once did. That's why Plymouth died. That's also why Mercury came to within a hair of also being zapped to oblivion if it wasn't for the efforts of CEO Bill Ford. But the horrid truth is that auto companies (like any business) will do anything it needs to in order to survive and be profitable. Even if it means it has to adjust to selling fewer vehicles under a reduced market share.

GM has plenty of tools at it's disposal. It's also (believe it or not) still currently cash rich. VERY cash rich. But GM is heavily dependent on insane sales volume to stay healthy. That's the deal with it's reliance on rebates, to keep volume up. Ford and especially Chrysler Division are set up to make amazing profit at modest sales numbers. Look at how the Chrysler 300 and Ford Mustang are merely the 9th & 10th best selling cars in the US, yet these 2 vehicles are almost singlehandedly making Chrysler rich and Ford's car division profitable. Because both have fewer dealers selling more cars, both Ford & Chrysler dealers are also making alot of bank over GM dealers.

GM either MUST repair market share, or it MUST lose divisions.

Although GM is taking a hard look at the latter, I'd expect it to happen only if there's no way they can do the former.

If GM has tons of middle management that can kill, cheapen, or delay perfectly good cars with the potential of improving the company, I think that same middle management will fight tooth if loosing divisions meant the end of their jobs.